Posted on 12/30/2005 9:13:26 AM PST by BenLurkin
Telling me to shut the hell up is a rather immature way of expressing your dissatisfaction with my opinion.
Our guys expect torture and decapitation if they are caught by the enemy. When they catch the guys that have killed their buddies or were planting IEDs, they are angry. If I caught the scumbags who are bombing us, I would do the same.
We put these boys in harm's way. In a war zone. Nobody knows how they will act or react in a war zone where bodies are burning and some of those bodies belonged to your friends.
I've been shot at, and it freaks me out every time. I go nuts. I get really mean. I understand these guys.
We need really mean people in war zones, not bleeding hearts. Turn him loose quietly.
The presstitutes that leaked this story instead of reporting it to our brass should be shot.
One of the all time ugliest woman I have ever seen. The father of that baby would have done better to boink warm liver.
...the precedent had already been set.
No, it is my way of making clear to you my vehement desire for people like you to quit pretending that Abu Ghraib was no big deal. Just because it isn't typical behavior of the American soldier, or just because it is not even a hundredth as bad as the things terrorists do doesn't mean it should be excused.
Our guys expect torture and decapitation if they are caught by the enemy. When they catch the guys that have killed their buddies or were planting IEDs, they are angry. If I caught the scumbags who are bombing us, I would do the same.
First...You would stack guys in a naked prisoner pyramid? You would have sex with a fellow soldier in front of them? You would put panties on their head? Have you seen anybody professional about these desires?
Yeah, Graner and England were really out for revenge, that's why he scrogged the heck out of her in front of the prisoners. Puhleeeezze! Abu Ghraib wasn't about revenge, it was about perversion and playground bully jollies. The idea that you can link that to IED's but you can't seem to link it to actual combat action that resulted from itis just plain silly.
We put these boys in harm's way. In a war zone. Nobody knows how they will act or react in a war zone where bodies are burning and some of those bodies belonged to your friends.
What's your point here? How does that have anything to do with whether any soldier should be punished for misconduct? Why does it have anything to do with Abu Ghraib? As far as I know, Graner, England and company were not involved in any sort of serious combat action that would traumatize them. Can you come up with some info on them being in the thick of things, or are you just going to keep pretending that combat fatigue causes people to produce porn?
I've been shot at, and it freaks me out every time. I go nuts. I get really mean. I understand these guys.
You understand the urge to create naked prisoner pyramids? Bully for you. Last time I checked, there were about 135,000 other troops over there who never did anything like this, and I know for sure that a lot of them were shot at, or were near an IED, or had a buddy die, etc. Yet, you excuse the behavior of these seven idiots. Why? Because they are doing what so many other soldiers would have the urge to do? That's crap. Graner, for instance, has no combat record. During the Gulf War he guarded prisoners. England has no comabt record and wasn't even a real MP. Again, got any info on any of these people being exposed to combat conditions?
We need really mean people in war zones, not bleeding hearts.
I didn't know that deciding not to use prisoners in your personal porn videos was a sign of a "bleeding heart." Nobody's punishing these guys because they didn't give the prisoner's cookies when they tucked them in. They're being punished because they did things that were 180 degrees out from standing orders.
What we need is people who act like soldiers. My buddy who went over and my nephew are both very nice people, but they know how to gut someone and not worry too hard about it, too. Both of them saw some very nasty things, and I can imagine either one of them killing a boatload of terrorists. But I really can't imagine them playing sex games with a prisoner, much less whining about the consequences. They're soldiers.
Turn him loose quietly.
What message does that send to their fellow soldiers? "Hey, screw around, disobey orders and put your fellow soldiers in danger, and we'll just let you loose because you couldn't help yourself, you poor baby." How iwll that help order and discipline? Will their comrades think that's justice? How about my local guys who got mortared over it? How will they feel?
The presstitutes that leaked this story instead of reporting it to our brass should be shot.
It's true the press should never have promoted this, but that doesn't change who was responsible for it in the first place, nor does it change the punishment they deserve.
Oh, and normally I don't care about whether somebody who is commenting on the war served or not, but I think that given your comments on getting shot at and getting mean, you should divulge where and how you served.
Seconded!
No, but it's a dandy way to keep the issue alive.
I've talked to two soldiers who served there and heard an interview with another who served there at the same time as England and Graner. All believed that the "rolls downhill" stuff was a load of crap, and a very convenient one, too, since one would have to prove a negative to refute it completely. They said that it would be so easy for Graner's crew to do this unsupervised that it was far more believable than the idea that higher ups would jump on a greande to save some lower-level officer's career. The soldier who served during the scandal era said he often knew his lieutenant was arriving several minutes before the LT actually made an appearance. One of my local guys confirmed that this was good data, though he didn't experience that exact sort of thing himself, since he was serving in a different capacity.
Plus...speaking from experience...night shift and mid shift might as well be in a different world from day shift. I hated Day shift on the flight line because I always had officers and senior enlisted coming around and making ome of my co-workers panic. At night, no such animal. I think I saw my Chief Master Sergeant on nights two or three times. The Captain? Never, and he was a hard worker, so it wasn't for lack of dedication.
The presstitutes that leaked this story instead of reporting it to our brass should be shot. It's true the press should never have promoted this, but that doesn't change who was responsible for it in the first place, nor does it change the punishment they deserve.
By December the brass knew about it. The arab street knew about it.
The only reason the press was able to push it into a story in March was they were supplied with photos by the REMFs Go Wild boys and girls.
Kinka like Cpl. Klinger but with an edge.
The site claimed that the DoD had purposely chosen to put unsophisticated hill people in charge of guarding the Iraqi suspects, because they would be too unsophisticated to know when their orders violated the law.When Frederick plead guilty they took the site down.
Nice try folks--even Gomer Pyle would have known better.
I was not aware that she had sex in front of them. I thought she was a lesbian.
While I cannot condone any of those actions, nor do they put our people in a good light, I will not judge them as harshly as you do.
I am among those who simply do not believe that it's as big a deal as you do. Period.
Hmmmm... lemme think...
Saddam put people into wood-chippers feet first.
Zarqawi cuts people's heads off with dull knives.
Gramer put panties on someone's head. Made them take their clothes off.
It wasn't nice.
An army's job is to kill people and break things.
I do not condone what they did.
I wouldn't do any of it.
I don't think they should go to prison for ten years though.
I reveal no personal information on the internet officer. Not my location, my name, my employer or where I have been shot at.
When it happened, I thought that it was insects because all I heard was this buzzing sound... until the first ricochet... and then even still, I didn't realize it right away and stayed standing... DUHHHHH
It was more than thirty years ago in a faraway land.
I agree.
But based on your previous posts, that should read:
I want the head idiot released immediately.
I wouldn't do it, but I "understand" it and have made numerous excuses for it.
I've described their "mean" attitude as just what we need in a war zone and described those who don't share the Graner/England attitude as "bleeding hearts."
Sorry, you're just jinking now. You should just go ahead and pull the ejection handles.
I am among those who simply do not believe that it's as big a deal as you do. Period.
I'm glad you don't think that friends of mine getting mortar rounds dropped in their vicinity is a big deal. It confirms my initial impression that you are a first class gold braided nitwit. Just a reminder, you didn't say it wasn't a big deal, you said they should get off completely.
Hmmmm... lemme think... Saddam put people into wood-chippers feet first. Zarqawi cuts people's heads off with dull knives. Gramer put panties on someone's head. Made them take their clothes off.
Well, if we put Tookie Williams, Aldrich Ames or Sandy Berger up against Saddam and Zarqawi, they look pretty good too. Who cares? So what if what any person does something that's not as bad as Saddam? Almost no human ever has been that bad.
I never said Graner was history's greatest monster, or even all that bad in the big scheme of things, But you said he should be freed and that nobody should go to prison for this. I said that they nearly got Americans killed and certainly got non-terrorist Iraqis killed. But let's forget that for a moment...let's say Graner led a conspiracy to steal and sell 500 Army vehicles. Does he go to prison? Of course. But wait...he's not as bad as Saddam! Not much of a defense, is it? Order and discipline requires...wait for it...order and discipline. Winking at conduct unbecoming is not order and discipline.
An army's job is to kill people and break things.
Producing porn on government time fits into that mission in what way? Freelance harassment of prisoners fits that mission in what way? My family has a line of Army and Air Force going back at least four generations. My wife's family has three generations of Army and Marines. Not one of us have ever had "porn producer" in our job description.
It was more than thirty years ago in a faraway land.
Thanks for serving. No stop excusing crap that makes it harder for my friends to accomplish their mission.
Weren't there allegations of "group sex" swirling around England at the time? If true, they must make some serious liqour over there!
It looks like there is no having a decent discussion with some people.
I was not aware that Lindsey England dropped mortar rounds on your friends. In that case, she is worse than I imagined.
One thing has become evident, that you cannot have a civilized discussion without immature name-calling. Once someone begins name-calling, I usually stop all correspondence with them rather than drag myself down to their level.
Have a Happy New Year.
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