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Intelligent Design Advocates Face Uphill Fight
Legal Intelligencer ^ | 12/22/2005 | Hank Grezlak

Posted on 12/22/2005 6:09:22 PM PST by KingofZion

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To: WarrenC

Phrenology is a field of inquiry as well. Perhaps the ID proponents will next request that Phrenology be taught in Physics class.


41 posted on 12/22/2005 7:45:35 PM PST by jess35
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To: WarrenC
As I understand it, ID is merely a field of inquiry.

Then you don't understand it. ID is not a field of inquiry. With ID, all inquiry is moot.

42 posted on 12/22/2005 7:47:32 PM PST by Rudder
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To: Mark Felton
Thanks for quoting Isaac Newton. I have been following some of these creation/evolution threads lately. Disappointed to say that a lot of what the darwinists on these threads have to offer are insults, ridicule and half-baked pompous answers. Reading their posts, the likes of Newton who made that quote would not be considered a "real" scientist.
43 posted on 12/22/2005 7:47:52 PM PST by Moorings
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To: Getready
If we engineer a life form, who after finding the life form after 1,000 years would think it was designed...

Actually the first step in trying to ascertain if a living creature is a result of some type of intelligent design would be to define a set of objective tests. That is much harder than it appears. Just how can you tell if, for example, a cow is a naturally evolved organism or a product of intelligent design by breeding without knowing the history of animal husbandry? How could you tell if a corn plant you find at the edge of your field grew naturally or was a descendant of a bio-engineered hybrid?

In fact you really can't tell the difference. Currently bio-engineered plants are identified by knowledge of the plants that have been made previously, and their genetic structure - without that history you can't tell a bio-engineered plant from a natural plant

44 posted on 12/22/2005 7:50:14 PM PST by freeandfreezing
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To: News Junkie
You can't evaluate the existence of God (supernatural) if you don't allow for the existence of the supernatural.

Intellectual masturbation like this will give you hairy palms.

45 posted on 12/22/2005 7:50:21 PM PST by Rudder
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To: fizziwig

Do you truly believe that any field of study that is based on what can be observed instead of what's in your heart is a religion? Is Chemistry a religion? Is Trigonometry a religion?


46 posted on 12/22/2005 7:52:10 PM PST by jess35
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To: Reactionary
["I don't understand why the Darwinists are so adamant that it not be permitted."]

They're upset because they can't account for how life began. And? They can't do it using any materialist model known to science.

I've got a bibliography of hundreds of papers, where would you like to start? Some of the following links have expired since I originally saved them, sorry, but the titles may help you find them in the library:

(See for example chapter 2 entitled "Phylogeny from Function: The Origin of tRNA Is in Replication, not Translation", in the online book "Tempo and Mode in Evolution: Genetics and Paleontology 50 Years After Simpson".)

Origin of Life and Cells

Obcells as Proto-Organisms: Membrane Heredity, Lithophosphorylation, and the Origins of the Genetic Code, the First Cells, and Photosynthesis (Journal of Molecular Evolution, Volume 53 - Number 4/5, 2001)

N-Carbamoyl Amino Acid Solid-Gas Nitrosation by NO/NOx: A New Route to Oligopeptides via alpha-Amino Acid N-Carboxyanhydride. Prebiotic Implications (Journal of Molecular Evolution, Volume 48 - Number 6, 1999

Chemical interactions between amino acid and RNA: multiplicity of the levels of specificity explains origin of the genetic code (Naturwissenschaften, Volume 89 Number 12 December 2002)

The Nicotinamide Biosynthetic Pathway Is a By-Product of the RNA World (Journal of Molecular Evolution, Volume 52 - Number 1, 2001)

On the RNA World: Evidence in Favor of an Early Ribonucleopeptide World

Inhibition of Ribozymes by Deoxyribonucleotides and the Origin of DNA

Genetic Code Origin: Are the Pathways of Type Glu-tRNAGln to Gln-tRNAGln Molecular Fossils or Not?

Ammonia From The Earth's Deep Oceans A Key Step In The Search For Life's Origins

Whitehead Study Supports Existence Of Ancient RNA World Helps Provide Insight Into Early Evolution Of Life

Yale Scientists Recreate Molecular Fossils Now Extinct That May Have Existed At The Beginning Of Life

A whole old world

The path from the RNA world.

Relics from the RNA world.

A supersymmetric model for the evolution of the genetic code.

The hydrogen hypothesis for the first eukaryote.

On the origins of cells: a hypothesis for the evolutionary transitions from abiotic geochemistry to chemoautotrophic prokaryotes, and from prokaryotes to nucleated cells William Martin and Michael J. Russell

Abstract: All life is organized as cells. Physical compartmentation from the environment and self-organization of self-contained redox reactions are the most conserved attributes of living things, hence inorganic matter with such attributes would be life’s most likely forebear. We propose that life evolved in structured iron monosulphide precipitates in a seepage site hydrothermal mound at a redox, pH and temperature gradient between sulphide-rich hydrothermal fluid and iron(II)-containing waters of the Hadean ocean floor. The naturally arising, three-dimensional compartmentation observed within fossilized seepage-site metal sulphide precipitates indicates that these inorganic compartments were the precursors of cell walls and membranes found in free-living prokaryotes. The known capability of FeS and NiS to catalyse the synthesis of the acetyl-methylsulphide from carbon monoxide and methylsulphide, constituents of hydrothermal fluid, indicates that pre-biotic syntheses occurred at the inner surfaces of these metal-sulphide-walled compartments, which furthermore restrained reacted products from diffusion into the ocean, providing sufficient concentrations of reactants to forge the transition from geochemistry to biochemistry. The chemistry of what is known as the RNA-world could have taken place within these naturally forming, catalyticwalled compartments to give rise to replicating systems. Sufficient concentrations of precursors to support replication would have been synthesized in situ geochemically and biogeochemically, with FeS (and NiS) centres playing the central catalytic role. The universal ancestor we infer was not a free-living cell, but rather was confined to the naturally chemiosmotic, FeS compartments within which the synthesis of its constituents occurred. The first free-living cells are suggested to have been eubacterial and archaebacterial chemoautotrophs that emerged more than 3.8 Gyr ago from their inorganic confines. We propose that the emergence of these prokaryotic lineages from inorganic confines occurred independently, facilitated by the independent origins of membrane-lipid biosynthesis: isoprenoid ether membranes in the archaebacterial and fatty acid ester membranes in the eubacterial lineage. The eukaryotes, all of which are ancestrally heterotrophs and possess eubacterial lipids, are suggested to have arisen ca. 2 Gyr ago through symbiosis involving an autotrophic archaebacterial host and a heterotrophic eubacterial symbiont, the common ancestor of mitochondria and hydrogenosomes. The attributes shared by all prokaryotes are viewed as inheritances from their confined universal ancestor. The attributes that distinguish eubacteria and archaebacteria, yet are uniform within the groups, are viewed as relics of their phase of differentiation after divergence from the non-free-living universal ancestor and before the origin of the free-living chemoautotrophic lifestyle. The attributes shared by eukaryotes with eubacteria and archaebacteria, respectively, are viewed as inheritances via symbiosis. The attributes unique to eukaryotes are viewed as inventions specific to their lineage. The origin of the eukaryotic endomembrane system and nuclear membrane are suggested to be the fortuitous result of the expression of genes for eubacterial membrane lipid synthesis by an archaebacterial genetic apparatus in a compartment that was not fully prepared to accommodate such compounds, resulting in vesicles of eubacterial lipids that accumulated in the cytosol around their site of synthesis. Under these premises, the most ancient divide in the living world is that between eubacteria and archaebacteria, yet the steepest evolutionary grade is that between prokaryotes and eukaryotes.

And:
The emergence of life from iron monosulphide bubbles at a submarine hydrothermal redox and pH front M. J. RUSSELL & A. J. HALL: Department of Geology and Applied Geology, University of Glasgow

Abstract: Here we argue that life emerged on Earth from a redox and pH front at c. 4.2 Ga. This front occurred where hot (c. 150)C), extremely reduced, alkaline, bisulphide-bearing, submarine seepage waters interfaced with the acid, warm (c. 90)C), iron-bearing Hadean ocean. The low pH of the ocean was imparted by the ten bars of CO2 considered to dominate the Hadean atmosphere/hydrosphere. Disequilibrium between the two solutions was maintained by the spontaneous precipitation of a colloidal FeS membrane. Iron monosulphide bubbles comprising this membrane were inflated by the hydrothermal solution upon sulphide mounds at the seepage sites. Our hypothesis is that the FeS membrane, laced with nickel, acted as a semipermeable catalytic boundary between the two fluids, encouraging synthesis of organic anions by hydrogenation and carboxylation of hydrothermal organic primers. The ocean provided carbonate, phosphate, iron, nickel and protons; the hydrothermal solution was the source of ammonia, acetate, HS", H2 and tungsten, as well as minor concentrations of organic sulphides and perhaps cyanide and acetaldehyde. The mean redox potential (ÄEh) across the membrane, with the energy to drive synthesis, would have approximated to 300 millivolts. The generation of organic anions would have led to an increase in osmotic pressure within the FeS bubbles. Thus osmotic pressure could take over from hydraulic pressure as the driving force for distension, budding and reproduction of the bubbles. Condensation of the organic molecules to polymers, particularly organic sulphides, was driven by pyrophosphate hydrolysis. Regeneration of pyrophosphate from the monophosphate in the membrane was facilitated by protons contributed from the Hadean ocean. This was the first use by a metabolizing system of protonmotive force (driven by natural ÄpH) which also would have amounted to c. 300 millivolts. Protonmotive force is the universal energy transduction mechanism of life. Taken together with the redox potential across the membrane, the total electrochemical and chemical energy available for protometabolism amounted to a continuous supply at more than half a volt. The role of the iron sulphide membrane in keeping the two solutions separated was appropriated by the newly synthesized organic sulphide polymers. This organic take-over of the membrane material led to the miniaturization of the metabolizing system. Information systems to govern replication could have developed penecontemporaneously in this same milieu. But iron, sulphur and phosphate, inorganic components of earliest life, continued to be involved in metabolism.

And:
The Path from the RNA World Anthony M. Poole, Daniel C. Jeffares, David Penny: Institute of Molecular Biosciences, Massey University

Abstract: We describe a sequential (step by step) Darwinian model for the evolution of life from the late stages of the RNA world through to the emergence of eukaryotes and prokaryotes. The starting point is our model, derived from current RNA activity, of the RNA world just prior to the advent of genetically-encoded protein synthesis. By focusing on the function of the protoribosome we develop a plausible model for the evolution of a protein-synthesizing ribosome from a high-fidelity RNA polymerase that incorporated triplets of oligonucleotides. With the standard assumption that during the evolution of enzymatic activity, catalysis is transferred from RNA M RNP M protein, the first proteins in the ``breakthrough organism'' (the first to have encoded protein synthesis) would be nonspecific chaperone-like proteins rather than catalytic. Moreover, because some RNA molecules that pre-date protein synthesis under this model now occur as introns in some of the very earliest proteins, the model predicts these particular introns are older than the exons surrounding them, the ``introns-first'' theory. Many features of the model for the genome organization in the final RNA world ribo-organism are more prevalent in the eukaryotic genome and we suggest that the prokaryotic genome organization (a single, circular genome with one center of replication) was derived from a ``eukaryotic-like'' genome organization (a fragmented linear genome with multiple centers of replication). The steps from the proposed ribo-organism RNA genome M eukaryotic-like DNA genome M prokaryotic-like DNA genome are all relatively straightforward, whereas the transition prokaryotic-like genome M eukaryotic-like genome appears impossible under a Darwinian mechanism of evolution, given the assumption of the transition RNA M RNP M protein. A likely molecular mechanism, ``plasmid transfer,'' is available for the origin of prokaryotic-type genomes from an eukaryotic-like architecture. Under this model prokaryotes are considered specialized and derived with reduced dependence on ssRNA biochemistry. A functional explanation is that prokaryote ancestors underwent selection for thermophily (high temperature) and/or for rapid reproduction (r selection) at least once in their history.

"Phylogeny from Function: The Origin of tRNA Is in Replication, not Translation", in the online book "Tempo and Mode in Evolution: Genetics and Paleontology 50 Years After Simpson"

Obcells as Proto-Organisms: Membrane Heredity, Lithophosphorylation, and the Origins of the Genetic Code, the First Cells, and Photosynthesis (Journal of Molecular Evolution, Volume 53 - Number 4/5, 2001)

N-Carbamoyl Amino Acid Solid-Gas Nitrosation by NO/NOx: A New Route to Oligopeptides via alpha-Amino Acid N-Carboxyanhydride. Prebiotic Implications (Journal of Molecular Evolution, Volume 48 - Number 6, 1999

Chemical interactions between amino acid and RNA: multiplicity of the levels of specificity explains origin of the genetic code (Naturwissenschaften, Volume 89 Number 12 December 2002)

The Nicotinamide Biosynthetic Pathway Is a By-Product of the RNA World (Journal of Molecular Evolution, Volume 52 - Number 1, 2001)

On the RNA World: Evidence in Favor of an Early Ribonucleopeptide World

Inhibition of Ribozymes by Deoxyribonucleotides and the Origin of DNA

Genetic Code Origin: Are the Pathways of Type Glu-tRNAGln to Gln-tRNAGln Molecular Fossils or Not?

Johnston WK, Unrau PJ, Lawrence MS, Glasner ME, Bartel DP.RNA-catalyzed RNA polymerization: accurate and general RNA-templated primer extension. Science. 2001 May 18;292(5520):1319-25.

Ferris JP. (1999 Jun). Prebiotic synthesis on minerals: bridging the prebiotic and RNA worlds. Biol Bull , 196, 311-4.

Levy M, and Miller SL. (1999 Jun). The prebiotic synthesis of modified purines and their potential role in the RNA world. J Mol Evol , 48, 631-7.

Unrau PJ, and Bartel DP. (1998 Sep 17). RNA-catalysed nucleotide synthesis [see comments] Nature , 395, 260-3.

Roth A, and Breaker RR. (1998 May 26). An amino acid as a cofactor for a catalytic polynucleotide [In Process Citation] Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A , 95, 6027-31.

Jeffares DC, Poole AM, and Penny D. (1998 Jan). Relics from the RNA world. J Mol Evol , 46, 18-36.

Poole AM, Jeffares DC, and Penny D. (1998 Jan). The path from the RNA world. J Mol Evol , 46, 1-17.

Wiegand TW, Janssen RC, and Eaton BE. (1997 Sep). Selection of RNA amide synthases. Chem Biol , 4, 675-83.

Di Giulio M. (1997 Dec). On the RNA world: evidence in favor of an early ribonucleopeptide world. J Mol Evol , 45, 571-8.

Hager AJ, and Szostak JW. (1997 Aug). Isolation of novel ribozymes that ligate AMP-activated RNA substrates. Chem Biol , 4, 607-17.

James KD, and Ellington AD. (1997 Aug). Surprising fidelity of template-directed chemical ligation of oligonucleotides [In Process Citation] Chem Biol , 4, 595-605.

Lohse PA, and Szostak JW. (1996 May 30). Ribozyme-catalysed amino-acid transfer reactions. Nature , 381, 442-4.

Lazcano A, and Miller SL. (1996 Jun 14). The origin and early evolution of life: prebiotic chemistry, the pre- RNA world, and time. Cell , 85, 793-8.

Ertem G, and Ferris JP. (1996 Jan 18). Synthesis of RNA oligomers on heterogeneous templates. Nature , 379, 238-40.

Robertson MP, and Miller SL. (1995 May 5). Prebiotic synthesis of 5-substituted uracils: a bridge between the RNA world and the DNA-protein world [see comments] Science , 268, 702-5.

Robertson MP, and Miller SL. (1995 Jun 29). An efficient prebiotic synthesis of cytosine and uracil [published erratum appears in Nature 1995 Sep 21;377(6546):257] Nature , 375, 772-4.

Breaker RR, and Joyce GF. (1995 Jun). Self-incorporation of coenzymes by ribozymes. J Mol Evol , 40, 551-8.

James KD, and Ellington AD. (1995 Dec). The search for missing links between self-replicating nucleic acids and the RNA world. Orig Life Evol Biosph , 25, 515-30.

Bohler C, Nielsen PE, and Orgel LE. (1995 Aug 17). Template switching between PNA and RNA oligonucleotides [see comments] Nature , 376, 578-81.

Connell GJ, and Christian EL. (1993 Dec). Utilization of cofactors expands metabolism in a new RNA world. Orig Life Evol Biosph , 23, 291-7.

Nielsen PE. (1993 Dec). Peptide nucleic acid (PNA): a model structure for the primordial genetic material? Orig Life Evol Biosph , 23, 323-7.

Lahav N. (1991 Aug 21). Prebiotic co-evolution of self-replication and translation or RNA world? J Theor Biol , 151, 531-9.

Ekland EH, Szostak JW, and Bartel DP. (1995 Jul 21). Structurally complex and highly active RNA ligases derived from random RNA sequences. Science , 269, 364-70.

Let me know when you get done reading those, and I'll give you some more.

Or if you'd like the Cliff-Notes version, here's a schematic:


47 posted on 12/22/2005 7:52:46 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: gcruse

"The judge pretty well disposed of the notion that this is anything other than a particular brand of Christianity."

I have no idea of what you, or the judge, mean by that. What brand of Christianity?

The issue is over whether first causes are by Intelligent Design....that is a long way from the fall of man and redemption through Christ, which is strictly theology and not being proposed as Science by anyone.

It is unbelievable the outright distortions that are perpetuated in this debate.


48 posted on 12/22/2005 7:53:38 PM PST by fizziwig
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To: Broker
>i>The antagonists are not as pro-darwin as they are against God. Darwinism has become their god in defiance of God.

Sorry, but you are lying.

49 posted on 12/22/2005 7:54:27 PM PST by Rudder
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To: Moorings
Disappointed to say that a lot of what the darwinists on these threads have to offer are insults, ridicule and half-baked pompous answers.

Surely you're not going to try to tell us that you haven't seen a vast amount of "insults, ridicule and half-baked pompous answers" from the *creationists*... If so, I'll be glad to post 200-300 of them for you.

But if there's any topic inevolutionary biology you'd like to see addressed, let me know and I'll be glad to help you out with it.

50 posted on 12/22/2005 7:55:30 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: balch3
Probably a Clinton appointee.

ID/Creationism proponents either lie or are ignorant when they debate.

Bush appointee.

51 posted on 12/22/2005 7:56:39 PM PST by Rudder
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To: Broker
The antagonists are not as pro-darwin as they are against God. Darwinism has become their god in defiance of God.

This is horse manure, son. The *majority* of American "Darwinists" are Christians. The primary "pro-Darwin/anti-ID" expert witness in the Dover trial is a Christian (biologist Kenneth R. Miller), who has written a book about reconciling evolution and God. What does that do to your silly conspiracy theory?

52 posted on 12/22/2005 7:57:14 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Marine_Uncle
Pretty soon we shall be hearing theories as how Pentium V microprocessors, oh lets throw in a Signetics Pace or Zilog Z80 have been found to be self created...

Nope, they were man-made. As was the Bible.

53 posted on 12/22/2005 7:58:54 PM PST by Rudder
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To: indcons

I am suggesting exactly that. Martin Luther was threatened with death after he exposed the Catholics, who sold indulgences, engaged in looting newly discovered parts of the world (South and Central America come to mind).
There is nothing christ-like about the catholic church.


54 posted on 12/22/2005 7:59:54 PM PST by claptrap (optional tag-line under reconsideration)
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To: Mark Felton
This statement is proof that this is anti-Christian persecution

Step down off the cross please. When Christians are caught lying in order to advance a religious agenda, they have no right to shriek persecution. That's what happened with creationism and that is what's happening with ID.

55 posted on 12/22/2005 8:00:13 PM PST by jess35
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To: balch3
Another activist judge legislating from the bench mega technicolor barf alert. Probably a Clinton appointee.

Psssst: Hey, knee-jerk guy... If you had bothered to read the article before you leapt to your keyboard to spew your unfounded presumptions, you would have noticed the following passages:

Not surprisingly, several groups that endorse the teaching of intelligent design, or "ID" as Jones referred to it throughout his opinion, lashed out and accused him, as he anticipated, of being an "activist federal judge."

Who knew that Republican judges appointed by Republican presidents could be such hacks for the left?

Well, if activism is changing the norm and imposing one's will from behind the safe confines of the bench onto the helpless masses, then Jones' decision in Kitzmiller hardly fits the bill, since the opinion follows closely the reasoning of other federal courts on the issue, including the U.S. Supreme Court.

And:
[The court decision says:] "Those who disagree with our holding will likely mark it as the product of an activist judge," he said. "If so, they will have erred as this is manifestly not an activist court. Rather, this case came to us as the result of the activism of an ill-informed faction on a school board, aided by a national public interest law firm eager to find a constitutional test case on ID, who in combination drove the board to adopt an imprudent and ultimately unconstitutional policy.

56 posted on 12/22/2005 8:00:26 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Mark Felton
This statement is proof that this is anti-Christian persecution. They state that just because the idea is mentioned in the Bible it automatically becomes a failed idea.

You're lying, too. You know the real reasons ID was rejected.

57 posted on 12/22/2005 8:00:42 PM PST by Rudder
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To: WarrenC
As I understand it, ID is merely a field of inquiry.

That's now how the creationists describe it:

I don't understand why the Darwinists are so adamant that it not be permitted.

It is permitted. Go right ahead and talk about it, investigate it, do anything you like. Just don't try to teach it in schools as science, because it isn't -- it's a trojan horse for creationism.

58 posted on 12/22/2005 8:02:57 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: Mark Felton
This is one of the most powerful arguments in favor of God. It is statistically impossible (almost infinite improbability) for those physical constants to come into existence at random with the values necessary for life to exist.

Perhaps life adapted to the environment, rather than the environment adapting to life. Your argument is not only not powerful, but specious.

59 posted on 12/22/2005 8:04:04 PM PST by Rudder
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To: claptrap
Your question begs another, are there engineers who can design kindness? love? generosity? these are most likely forigen concepts to you but give a shot at the answer.

Excellent point -- you've demonstrated that it's ludicrous to think that these things could have been designed. Thank you for showing the flaws in presuming that "Intelligent Design" was responsible for such things.

60 posted on 12/22/2005 8:04:27 PM PST by Ichneumon
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