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The question even Darwin avoided
The Sydney Morning Herald ^ | 12/22/05 | Paul Davies

Posted on 12/22/2005 7:15:18 AM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo

WHEN Charles Darwin published On the Origin of Species in 1859, he gave a convincing account of how life has evolved over billions of years from simple microbes to the complexity of the Earth's biosphere to the present. But he pointedly left out how life got started.

One might as well speculate about the origin of matter, he quipped. Today scientists have a good idea of how matter originated in the Big Bang, but the origin of life remains shrouded in mystery.

Although Darwin refused to be drawn on how life began, he conjectured in a letter to a friend about "a warm little pond" in which various substances would accumulate.

Driven by the energy of sunlight, these chemicals might become increasingly complex, until a living cell formed spontaneously. Darwin's idle speculation became the basis of the "primordial soup" theory of biogenesis, and was adopted by researchers eager to re-create the crucial steps in the laboratory. But this approach hasn't got very far.

The problem is that even the simplest known organism is incredibly complex. Textbooks vaguely describe the pathway from non-living chemicals to primitive life in terms of some unspecified "molecular self-assembly".

The problem lies with 19th-century thinking, when life was regarded as some sort of magic matter, fostering the belief that it could be cooked up in a test tube if only one knew the recipe.

Today many scientists view the living cell as a type of supercomputer - an information-processing and replicating system of extraordinary fidelity. DNA is a database, and a complex encrypted algorithm converts its instructions into molecular products.

(Excerpt) Read more at smh.com.au ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News
KEYWORDS: crevo; crevolist; darwin; intelligentdesign
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To: Mind-numbed Robot

"We are at war for our survival against the Democrats/Communists and the Islamists and it is truly a battle to the death."

I was saying something similar to someone yesterday. I felt bad being so negative, but honestly, the intent of the enemy is evil, and people just do not want to accept it.

On an interesting side note. I was thinking about how the liberal media used changing semantics to alter peoples perceptions of various things. For example, "Bums" became "homeless", "blacks" became "african americans".

I was trying to think of what some of the recent attempts they are making to change public perception of things, Forexample, "Pro-Choice" being presented as "pro-privacy" that one is easy. "insurgents" for "terrorists", I am sure there are more subtle ones I am missing...


181 posted on 12/22/2005 10:09:57 AM PST by NormB (Yes, but watch your cookies!!)
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To: Zavien Doombringer
How do you know he is in hell? Darwin rebuked those that made his thoery into a religion. He even recanted his book saying it was all a "what if.." and he repented.

Really? Do you have any cites or sources to offer?

182 posted on 12/22/2005 10:09:58 AM PST by atlaw
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To: orionblamblam
The belief that science will continue to progress as it has these last few hundred years is not exactly an unfounded "faith," and nor is it restricted to "fundamentalist atheists."

We were not talking about science in general. We were talking about one specific advancement. I applaud your "faith" in science to solve that particular problem.
183 posted on 12/22/2005 10:10:03 AM PST by Antoninus (Hillary smiles every time a Freeper trashes Rick Santorum)
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To: blowfish
Sorry, but there is no such law.

I refer you to post #47.
184 posted on 12/22/2005 10:10:56 AM PST by JamesP81
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To: NC28203
Well, if there is a designer, then that designer would be above the laws of nature and be supernatural. Science, by definition, does not deal with the supernatural. That is for the philosophers.

Yes and no.

The study of science leads to questions that are not specifically scientific. In other words, the phenomena under question is part of a world that is bigger than the conventions of naturalism. Specialization is safe; it permits one to ignore the point of overlap.

I have no doubt that judges of this sort plan to ban the philosophy of science as well.

185 posted on 12/22/2005 10:11:08 AM PST by cornelis
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To: Mind-numbed Robot

> It is interesting to me that this ToE vs ID issue comes up simultaneously with the left's war on God, the church, Christmas, etc. It seems another leftist issue and front in the battle to change our culture to one more amenable to Communism


In that I would agree. Closet Leftists pretending to be right-wing fundies trying to replace science with obvious superstitious nonsense... it's an ingenious if diabolical strategy to discredit the conservative movement. I'm not generally given to conspiracy theories, but that's really the only one that explains the vociferousness of many supposedly conservative "creationists."


186 posted on 12/22/2005 10:11:10 AM PST by orionblamblam (A furore Normannorum libra nos, Domine)
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To: Antoninus

> I applaud your "faith" in science to solve that particular problem.

The guy who decoded the human genome is on his way to doing what you consider fanciful. The history of science has shown that unless somethign is agaisn tthe laws of physics, it'll eventually be done. And since there's nothing in the laws of phsyics stating that life cannot come from lifelessness, I have no doubt that it will eventually be done.


187 posted on 12/22/2005 10:13:15 AM PST by orionblamblam (A furore Normannorum libra nos, Domine)
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To: adiaireton8
So, if everything was created yesterday, how would your clocks look different?

Everything wasn't created yesterday and my calibrated clocks keep good calibrated time to prove that everything wasn't created yesterday. BUT, my clock WOULD NOT look different from the day before yesterday or yesterday or tomorrow. How can something that already existed 2 days ago, be created YESTERDAY? I'd love to see the leap of logic.

188 posted on 12/22/2005 10:13:58 AM PST by ElectricStrawberry (27th Infantry Regiment...cut in half during the Clinton years....Nec Aspera Terrent!!!)
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To: NC28203
"If the creationists can come forward with scientific evidence of life coming forth on this planet over a period of 6 days about 6,000 years ago. I'm sure it will be given consideration in the classroom."

That would be history, not science.

"Competing theories are welcome in the science classroom, but Intelligent Design is not science. It generates no testable hypotheses and otherwise does not conform with the scientific method. This does not mean ID is not true. It simply means that the existence of an intelligent designer is not a question that science can address. If they can come up with testable hypotheses, ID will be welcomed."

I have put forth a testable, falsifiable hypothesis based on ID. Start welcoming.

Due to information complexity and interdependence, no living organism can ever spontaneously arise from lifeless matter which exists in a naturally occurring state, but life can be created. This statement can be tested and falsified.

If simple (or complex) life forms can be created in a laboratory it will validate what is intuitively reasonable, that life could be assembled intelligently. If any living organism (simple or complex) is ever discovered to arise from non living matter via a yet unknown self organizing principle, it will disprove this ID hypothesis.

The lack of significant test results makes the ID proposition a hypothesis rather than an established theory.
189 posted on 12/22/2005 10:15:30 AM PST by unlearner (You will never come to know that which you do not know until you first know that you do not know it.)
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To: Coyoteman
Not factually correct.

What does a singular court decision based on one poorly crafted book have to do with deciding the fallacy of ID?

190 posted on 12/22/2005 10:17:37 AM PST by Mike Darancette (Mesocons for Rice '08)
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To: highball
Highball,

You are performing a clever rhetorical two-step by equivocating on the definition of "science". For a theory to be "scientific" it much only be testable by scientific methods, it doesn't have to be correct. When the mood suits you, you use the term "science" to only include theories that have been shown to be correct. This approach leads to a paradox in which no theory could be examined by science until it was first proved to be correct.

The theory that galactic gravitation forces influence our destinies is with near certainty WRONG, but it does fall within the realm of concepts that can be scientifically tested. In that sense astrology IS science. It is just extremely likely that it is a INCORRECT scientific explanation. Behe's only point is that it is not an INVALID scientific explanation, only a bad one.
191 posted on 12/22/2005 10:18:17 AM PST by ks_shooter
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To: orionblamblam
That's funny. Sometimes I imagine the judge this way. On the other hand, he probably does know what I'm talking about.

But there's something screwy about banning Darwin from science classrooms, simply because he was wrong.

192 posted on 12/22/2005 10:18:54 AM PST by cornelis
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To: mvpel
If the creationists can come forward with scientific evidence of life coming forth on this planet over a period of 6 days about 6,000 years ago. I'm sure it will be given consideration in the classroom.

What's your relativistic inertial reference frame? A perpetual calendar travelling at 99.99999999999% of the speed of light would mark out 6,000 years while 13.4 billion years elapsed here on Earth.

Very good! Unfortunately, darwinists may have trouble understanding this concept.

193 posted on 12/22/2005 10:19:16 AM PST by Mogollon
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To: cornelis

So you admit that you think "theory" should be redefined to admit astrology.

Interesting. Myself, I think that words mean things, and I don't want them redefined to accomodate anyone's PC, no matter who's pushing that PC.


194 posted on 12/22/2005 10:19:39 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: ks_shooter
When the mood suits you, you use the term "science" to only include theories that have been shown to be correct. This approach leads to a paradox in which no theory could be examined by science until it was first proved to be correct.

Thanks, ks_shooter.

It appears that the judge is headed in this direction.

195 posted on 12/22/2005 10:20:29 AM PST by cornelis
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To: Ichneumon
And you base your "sure" belief on what, exactly?

That the intellect is an aspect of the soul, which is the (Aristotelean) form of the body, and that the soul/form/intellect is a simple spiritual substance.

196 posted on 12/22/2005 10:21:47 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: orionblamblam

You did a wonderful job of keeping it simple. Thanks.


197 posted on 12/22/2005 10:23:15 AM PST by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government.)
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To: Coyoteman
Your link does not work, using your logic, "Wedge Strategy" web page must not exist. We cannot accept that one instance of illogic (your linking error) does not negate the existence of the web page.
198 posted on 12/22/2005 10:23:42 AM PST by Mike Darancette (Mesocons for Rice '08)
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To: ks_shooter
Highball,

You are performing a clever rhetorical two-step by equivocating on the definition of "science". For a theory to be "scientific" it much only be testable by scientific methods, it doesn't have to be correct. When the mood suits you, you use the term "science" to only include theories that have been shown to be correct. This approach leads to a paradox in which no theory could be examined by science until it was first proved to be correct.

The theory that galactic gravitation forces influence our destinies is with near certainty WRONG, but it does fall within the realm of concepts that can be scientifically tested. In that sense astrology IS science. It is just extremely likely that it is a INCORRECT scientific explanation. Behe's only point is that it is not an INVALID scientific explanation, only a bad one.

I'm doing no such thing.

Astrology is not falsifiable. It fails the test of the word "theory".

199 posted on 12/22/2005 10:24:03 AM PST by highball ("I find that the harder I work, the more luck I seem to have." -- Thomas Jefferson)
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To: unlearner

>>>Due to information complexity and interdependence, no living organism can ever spontaneously arise from lifeless matter which exists in a naturally occurring state, but life can be created. This statement can be tested and falsified.

This is much like the test for ID proposed by both Professors Behe and Minnich to grow the bacterial flagellum in the laboratory. In the trial, Professor Behe conceded that the proposed test could not approximate real world conditions and even if it could, Professor Minnich admitted that it would merely be a test of evolution, not design.


200 posted on 12/22/2005 10:24:43 AM PST by NC28203
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