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Intelligent Design case decided - Dover, Pennsylvania, School Board loses [Fox News Alert]
Fox News | 12/20/05

Posted on 12/20/2005 7:54:38 AM PST by snarks_when_bored

Fox News alert a few minutes ago says the Dover School Board lost their bid to have Intelligent Design introduced into high school biology classes. The federal judge ruled that their case was based on the premise that Darwin's Theory of Evolution was incompatible with religion, and that this premise is false.


TOPICS: Heated Discussion
KEYWORDS: biology; creation; crevolist; dover; education; evolution; intelligentdesign; keywordpolice; ruling; scienceeducation
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To: js1138; TheGhostOfTomPaine
I should add that Judge Jones's decision doesn't even necessarily apply throughout the entire 3rd Circuit, as he's the federal judge for the Middle District of Pennsylvania and other federal judges within the 3rd Circuit could also decide similar cases differently.

By the way, you asked, "If an appeals court in another district makes a ruling . . . " Such a ruling would come first from another (trial-level) federal circuit court, not from an appellate court. Of course the appellate courts could get involved later, in any cases where there were grounds for appeal.

1,501 posted on 12/20/2005 6:40:40 PM PST by TheGhostOfTomPaine
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150? placemarker


1,502 posted on 12/20/2005 6:40:42 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Ceewrighter
I think the judge overstepped his bounds on the ruling.

The worst part of the ruling is that the school board is required to pay in full the court costs incured.

Except to see more law suits coming out of this.

1,503 posted on 12/20/2005 6:40:59 PM PST by mware (everyone that doesn't like what America and President Bush has done for Iraq can all go to HELL.")
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To: xzins
There is a spiritual poverty in evolutionary theory that naturally leads to despair and hopelessness.

You do know, don't you, that John Paul II supported evolution?

I don't think I'd call him full of "despair and hopelessness".

1,504 posted on 12/20/2005 6:41:31 PM PST by narby (Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
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To: Bushbacker1
And, the other has over 2000 years of belief.

Can't say that kind of thing impresses me by itself anymore.

1,505 posted on 12/20/2005 6:42:07 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Ceewrighter
["but there are also enough "filled gaps" to give overwhelming evidence of evolutionary change and common ancestry.]

Your science requires the type of faith that I won't place in a mere theory.

Nonsense. It requires no "faith" at all, it requires familiarity with the evidence, understanding of the process involved, and knowledge.

Perhaps this essay will help you understand the difference: Do You Believe in Evolution?.

1,506 posted on 12/20/2005 6:42:43 PM PST by Ichneumon
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To: VadeRetro
From listening to the judge on Fox, it seems that part of the theory is that there is a cause and affect nature to ID. It is just that the ultimate cause in unknown.

Seems to me that is as good a theory as the Big Bang.

1,507 posted on 12/20/2005 6:43:41 PM PST by mware (everyone that doesn't like what America and President Bush has done for Iraq can all go to HELL.")
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To: unlearner
You post is a broad mixture of correct reasoning and piffle. Neither abiogenesis nor ID can be disproved at the current state of technology. It is possible in principle, however, to work toward an understanding of life processes and eventually demonstrate that each necessary step can happen at a reasonable level of probability. Such an endeavor might take centuries. Problems like gravity have taken centuries.

I know of no way, in principle, to demonstrate that something cannot happen, particularly something that has left evidence of having happened.

1,508 posted on 12/20/2005 6:44:26 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: lonestar67; All
AFAIK the chimp is the only other primate to be sequenced. Anybody know of others?

I said there is a 99+% identity in the coding regions between chimps and humans and 98% identity overall. Yes there are some areas where the differences are greater, especially in non-coding regions.

Don't go to a Creationist website to get your information, go read the Proceedings of the National Academy of Science article for yourself. Can't find the reference right now, but I'll be glad to look if you promise to actually read it. If you're not going to make the effort, then neither will I.

1,509 posted on 12/20/2005 6:46:12 PM PST by furball4paws (The new elixir of life - dehydrated toad urine.)
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To: xzins
Creationists are nothing more than committed, conservative religionists.

Creationists are merely... wrong.

1,510 posted on 12/20/2005 6:46:17 PM PST by narby (Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
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To: js1138

I actually think evolution is highly credible as science.

I am quite displeased with how ID scientists are treated.

Notice you now thoughfully refute my evidence on primates.

Earlier though, I was "in a parallel universe," because you dismissed out of hand the possibility of its existence.

This is how evolution proponents argue. It is wrong. And it does more to discredit evolution than any gap in the so called record.


1,511 posted on 12/20/2005 6:48:41 PM PST by lonestar67
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To: andysandmikesmom
By the way, love your last name...

For some reason, I doubt he gets accused of drinking in front of his children.

1,512 posted on 12/20/2005 6:50:30 PM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: furball4paws

I don't understand the problem here. I posted a link that was pretty clear. Here it is again:

http://www.wired.com/news/medtech/0,1286,57892,00.html

What is wrong with this?

Here is the conclusion of the article:


The Perlegen researchers compared human chromosome 21 with chimpanzee, orangutan, rhesus macaque and woolly monkey DNA sequences. In all the species, they found that DNA had been rearranged much more frequently during primate genome evolution than previously thought.

The DNA was often reordered in areas of the genome that contained functioning genes -- genes that researchers can investigate to find important clues about human health and the nature of disease.

The study didn't generate a new number expressing how similar or different chimpanzee DNA is from human DNA. However, researchers say, that number might be different depending on how it is measured anyway.

With new technologies like Perlegen's biochip, researchers can measure the genome at a much more minute scale than had been possible before.

The 98.5 percent difference between humans and nonhuman primates is based on differences between the two genomes' sequences of the letters A, T, C and G, which stand for the nucleotides adenine, cytosine, thymine and guanine. When researchers sequence the DNA of a genome, they use a machine like Applied Biosystems' ABI Prism 3700 to determine the order of the nucleotides. The letters form base pairs (A always binds to T and C always binds to G) that link together to form the rungs on the ladder of the DNA double helix.

But with technologies like Perlegen's "high-density array" -- a chip that allows scientists to look at whole genomes -- researchers can not only see missing base pairs, but also rearrangements of the base pairs in the genomes.

"(The research shows) how very interesting it is to look at small differences, whereas previously the focus was looking at broad differences," Gibbs said. "That's a suggestion of a paradigm shift."


1,513 posted on 12/20/2005 6:53:40 PM PST by lonestar67
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To: benjibrowder

Minnehaha Academy in Minneapolis


1,514 posted on 12/20/2005 6:54:01 PM PST by caffe
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To: Ceewrighter
A movie can also be cut and spliced to form a reality

And you think fossil evidence has been "spliced"? Great. Show me.

What a weak analogy.

It must have been hard for you to come up with a valid criticism.

I'll have to use that example again.

1,515 posted on 12/20/2005 6:54:56 PM PST by narby (Hillary! The Wicked Witch of the Left)
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To: PatrickHenry; andysandmikesmom
Shortly after his death, Lady Hope addressed a gathering of young men and women at the educational establishment founded by the evangelist Dwight Lyman Moody at Northfield, Massachusetts. She had, she maintained, visited Darwin on his deathbed. He had been reading the Epistle to the Hebrews, had asked for the local Sunday school to sing in a summerhouse on the grounds, and had confessed: "How I wish I had not expressed my theory of evolution as I have done." He went on, she said, to say that he would like her to gather a congregation since he "would like to speak to them of Christ Jesus and His salvation, being in a state where he was eagerly savouring the heavenly anticipation of bliss." With Moody's encouragement, Lady Hope's story was printed in the Boston Watchman Examiner.
Although the Wikpedia article does not recount that version, it does reveal a few flaws in

Shortly after his death, Lady Hope addressed a gathering of young men and women at the educational establishment founded by the evangelist Dwight Lyman Moody at Northfield, Massachusetts...

With Moody's encouragement, Lady Hope's story was printed in the Boston Watchman Examiner.

The Widow Denny did not travel to the United States before 1913, and the article appeaed in the Boston Watchman Examinier in 1915.
DL Moody died in 1899

Hope remarried in 1893 to T.A. Denny, an Irish businessman some 24 years her senior. She continued to use the name "Lady Hope" rather than "Mrs Denny".

That styling was socially dubious at best.

1,516 posted on 12/20/2005 6:54:58 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (so natural to mankind is intolerance in whatever they really care about - J S Mill)
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To: Jo Nuvark

The Lady Hope story is a myth.


1,517 posted on 12/20/2005 6:55:15 PM PST by Varda
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To: wolf24

The scientific method includes much more than dependent vs independent variables. Synthetic organic chemistry is the first thing that comes to mind. Also, any qualitative aspect of science is outside that specific realm. In other words, not all science is quantitative.


1,518 posted on 12/20/2005 6:55:40 PM PST by doc30 (Democrats are to morals what and Etch-A-Sketch is to Art.)
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To: lonestar67

The article you linked is OK, but your use of the word "considerable" and the implication that there is some startling new problem for evolution is nonsense.

What is interesting is that the coding reagions of DNA are mor similar than the non-coding. This is what you would expect if variation is subject to selection.


1,519 posted on 12/20/2005 6:55:45 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Varda

[...The Lady Hope story is a myth...]

MYTHunderstanding: A myth that debunks a myth.
Now I'm really confused. Did you read the article?


1,520 posted on 12/20/2005 6:57:51 PM PST by Jo Nuvark (Those who bless Israel will be blessed, those who curse Israel will be cursed. Gen 12:3)
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