Posted on 12/20/2005 7:10:50 AM PST by minus_273
No - I'm saying war is hell, and if you mess with the bull you get the horns. Put words in someone else's mouth.
Enough crying for the poor Germans who started the whole thing. They were fu**ing unbeleivable in Russia, in Poland, the Jews - did you miss the London bombing? What military target was that? How about the unguided rockets being launched at England?
And don't try any of that "Treaty of Versailles caused it" Horse Pucky either. The Germans were an aggressive militaristic society for almost as long as there was a unified Germany.
OOOH - we bombed Dresden - yes - they earned it.
I hope I never change my mind.
He is not safe behind bars. He is now out in the great big cruel world where a CIA operative can slip a shiv between his ribs. All it takes is a bit of nerve by the president.
"Gitmo" did not have to be invented. It is a prisoner of war camp - partially, and a holding place for spies. When the war is over, it will be closed.
In WWII half of those in that camp would have been shot as spies - by any side in the war. I'm of the opinion that that would be a good idea in this case as well. Now that we have them - what do we do with them?
If I were you I would leave discussion of "legality of detention camps" alone. It is not Germany's strong suit.
As far as your reading of the Patriot Act, please enlighten us - exactly how has it "neutralized our legal system"?
The WOT is not the personal property of President Bush. It is the policy of the US. Your comments reveal you a victim of the media.
You and your German Compatriots should treat this as input. We are not the ones releasing murdering terrorists - you are. We are asking for your help. You are releasing murderers of US servicemen.
We see your actions as weak, and not supportive. We understand your policy is to let murderers with life sentences free after 1/5th of a life sentence. I am saying we don't appreciate it, and it is a bad policy - especially in this case.
Look at your post - Gitmo, Patriot Act, Bush's WOT - leftist song sheet - if I were reading this - whose side would I think you are on? How - exactly - are you supporting the US?
We don't want you to be a banana republic. We want your help.
The death penalty is the only form of punishment in existance today that has no recidivism rate.
Can you say the same for 15-20 year incarcerations?
Having said that, neither Germany, or Japan has any moral right to complain, none at all. They both started the war and both committed atrocities on a massive scale. I will concede that German treatment of our POW's was generally humane but probably done so their own would received similar treatment in America.
Germany's release of this prisoner does appear to be clearly a political move, not a judicial one. Flying him out of the country secretly, ignoring American requests for extradetion etc.
Yes Germany is beginning to behave in a craven and even cowardly way. When the terrorists come back to haunt them, they will wish they had been more like Charles Martel and less like Quisling.
extradetion-extradition.
It is indeed a interesting question who is the one to define "western values". Since the "west" is consisting out of the US, Canada, Australia AND Europe it is not that easy to say who is the one to have the ultimative rights on it. Values in America and Europe have developed into different directions during the last years. Not only in Europe but also in the US values are under a permanent change. The problem is, that not only a small European "elite" (as you said) is attracted by completely different values than Americans.
This Hamadi-BS is a good example for it. It is simply not compatible to the west European way of thinking anymore to execute prisoners. If they are not an obvious open danger anymore they go free after 15 to 20 years (I do not want to discuss the question if Hamadi is an open danger or not - I already said that to my personal feeling he would have stayed in prison until his biological end). That policy is backed by the vast majority of the western European people (incl. UK). In the US this is for sure vice versa.
The question if the "west" as a whole will continue to exist or not, will be, if we find common values again. Of course most of you will say in this emotionally overheated discussion that Europe is completely irrelevant or other related stuff. Everyone here knows very well that this is completely wrong, even if some wish that it would be the case. America is as dependent on its partners on the old continent as they are on America. No matter if it is in social, economical, political or other matters. There is no doubt that the US can fight its wars alone, but there is much more than just defense.
The truth will be somewhere in the middle. Both sides of the Atlantic should find a way to get there.
I haven't invented the wheel. Please allow me some questions:
Why is it nessecary then to erect it outside the federal territory of the US? During WWII i.e. it was absolutely no problem to the US to keep German POWs on American territory.
As far as your reading of the Patriot Act, please enlighten us - exactly how has it "neutralized our legal system"?
Sorry for my imprecise expression. The patriot act of course did not neutralized your legal system completely. But for sure it limited some of the rights of your people and of your offenders.
The WOT is not the personal property of President Bush. It is the policy of the US. Your comments reveal you a victim of the media.
Sometimes I am simply too fast with words. You are perfectly right. It is of course the policy of the US and not only of a single person.
We see your actions as weak, and not supportive.
Personally I share this view although not in this case. It is for sure that such a economically strong country like Germany could and should do much more - in Iraq or elsewhere. The problem is that Germans do not have any problem with those issues. No matter where you go on the old continent you will find that most people are influenced by the mainstream media and they fear President Bush more than Bin Laden. There are some informed and reasonable politicians left and they help if they can, but in a democracy you have to follow the majority. This is what happens to Merkel in the moment. If she would help the US with i.e. troops in Iraq she would loose her power the next day.
We need time to solve those problems and time to get rid of those elements in our administrations that block any friendly action towards America. It will not be that easy but there is hope.
BTW - the Hamadi release was for sure not initiated by Merkel. As I said - this was a legal routine.
I hope you are right. Dead or a stay at Club Gitmo would be a fitting end for this low life scum (as it would be for any islamic terror slime).
This is funny, since my grandfather was one of the very few German pilots in Dresden-Klotzsche who were able to start with a full-tanked fighter plane to defend the town. There would have been enough planes, but there was a severe lack of gasoline and pilots. Experienced pilots like my grandfather (he served in the Luftwaffe since 1934) had to train little boys that were 17 years old within 10 days or less to fly a full-scale Messerschmitt or Focke-Wulf.
The bombing must have been horrible, since the town was filled up with refugees from Silesia that was partly overrolled by the Soviets at that time. The Wehrmacht was in complete breakup and only Hitler and some other idiots tried to defend to the last.
I had many interesting discussions with this old man (he is 88 years old now) if the Brits had reason to bomb Dresden or not. One thing is for sure - it was simply a payback without any millitary need.
Did Germany release the murderer of US Navy Diver Robert Dean Stethem in order to gain the release of German Susanne Osthoff, who had been held hostage by terrorists in Iraq since November 25?
Credible sources in the Egyptian government, who were involved in the negotiations, have confirmed that this is the case.
Earlier today (Tuesday), it was announced that Mohamed Ali Hammadi had been released by the German government. Hammadi had been convicted and sentenced to life without parole by a German court for his role in the hijacking of TWA flight 847.
Robert Dean Stethem was a 23 year old steelworker and diver with the US Navy when he boarded a flight from Athens to Rome on June 14, 1985, at the conclusion of his assignment in the Middle East.
But ten minutes after takeoff, events took a fatal turn for Stethem. Two men, Hizbullah terrorists, stormed the cockpit with guns. One pulled a pin to a hand grenade, and forced the pilot to divert to Beirut.
The terrorists quickly learned that Stethem was in the US Navy, and was severely beaten. He was finally shot in the head, and his body dumped onto the tarmac in Beirut.
It would be 17 days before the remaining hostages were released.
Hammadi, the brother of Hizbullah leader Abdul Hadi Hammadi, was arrested two years after the event by German authorities. Three others implicated in the hijacking remain on the FBI Most Wanted Terrorist list: Imad Mugniyah, Ali Atwa, and Hassan Izz-Al-Din.
Mugniyah has been tied to kidnappings and bombings throughout the world over the past two decades, including the following:
* April 18, 1983 bombing of the United States embassy in Beirut, which killed 63 people including 17 Americans
* October 23, 1983 simultaneous truck bombings against the French paratroopers and US Marine killing 58 French soldiers and 241 Marines.
* September 20, 1984, he attacked the US embassy annex building.
* Linked to the numerous kidnappings of Westerners in Beirut through the 1980s – some were killed, some by beheading, and a few were eventually released
* March 17, 1992 bombings of the Israeli embassy in Buenos Aires Argentina, which killed 29
* July 1994 bombing of the AMIA cultural building in in Buenos Aires Argentina, killing 86 people
* Orchestrated the 2000 abductions of three Israeli soldiers in the southern part of Lebanon
* Abduction of Israeli Colonel Elchanan Tenenbaum.
There are striking similarities between terrorism of 20 years ago at the hands of Mugniyah, and the practices of the present-day terrorists in Iraq.
It is very likely that Mugniyah, who remains at large, is heavily involved in the leadership of the Iraqi “insurgency”.
It is not surprising, then, that attempts were made to force the release of Mugniyah’s compatriot and partner in crime Hammadi by kidnapping a German citizen in Iraq. Since Hammadi’s apprehension in 1987, there have been numerous attempts by Hizbullah and their allied groups to free Hammadi by exchanging him for German hostages in Lebanon in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s.
The release of Hammadi shortly after the release of German hostage Susanne Osthoff is more than coincidence.
Mugniyah and his murdering thugs have finally brokered the release of Hammadi.
Robert Stethem was not the first person murdered by Hammadi and company. He almost certainly will not be the last.
The man who murdered a US Navy diver in cold blood is free - free to kill again.
Don't miss this tidbit, Laura Mansfield had sources to contact:
>>>Credible sources in the Egyptian government, who were involved in the negotiations, have confirmed that this is the case.<<<
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1543955/posts?page=252#252
I fail to understand what is funny about it.
That "funny" was sarcasm.
Your words speak for themselves.
They make me think of a poem by Richard Tierney that starts out:
"If hatred were water,
I would be a well..."
I suspected that it was but go back and read my post and explain why you felt it necessary to be sarcastic.
No sarcasm about you or your father, but sarcasm about the iniquitousness of fate. The victims of this bombardment weren't those who were responsible for the nazi crimes and the fallen British bomber-crews (my grandfather was a quite effective pilot to my knowlege) weren't responsible for the millitary desicions of Bomber-Harris (no matter if it is legitimate to bomb civilians or not) either.
From the all's well that ends well category:
In a move proving that the new government of Lebanon has more sense and more courage than Berlin, the terrorist that tortured and killed an American Navy diver in 1985 got arrested almost immediately on his arrival. Acting in concert with US intelligence, Lebanese officials detained Mohammed Ali Hamadi and will hold him while they consider a request for his extradition to the US:
The Lebanese killer of a U.S. Navy diver was in custody in Beirut yesterday, according to U.S. officials who decried his release from a German prison last week and pledged to bring him to the United States for trial. ...
Kenneth Stethem, the petty officer's older brother, called the release "absolute injustice," and called on the Bush administration to "bring to bear all of its resources to demand an explanation from the German government as to why he was released."
U.S. and German officials said Berlin notified Washington a couple of days before Hamadi was released. The United States, whose extradition request was turned down in 1987, did not ask that he be held longer because it saw no chance that Germany would turn him over now.
Instead, Washington approached the authorities in Beirut, where Petty Officer Stethem's murder occurred and where Hamadi arrived on Friday.
I recall now when Hamadi got tried in Germany in the late 1980s why it was so controversial; the crime hadn't taken place in Germany. Hamadi got captured by the Germans and instead of turning him over to the Americans -- who claimed jurisdiction for the hijacking of the American plane and the murder of Stethem -- the Germans insisted on trying Hamadi themselves. After Hamadi's sentencing, the US insisted that Hamadi get extradited to the US upon his release, and the Germans told us at that time it would constitute "double jeopardy". We still insisted on extradition, but as this further reporting shows, we knew we wouldn't get it.
And Lebanon doesn't have any illusions about double jeopardy or rehabbing Hizbollah torture-murderers. They may not extradite Hamadi, as we do not have an extradition treaty with the new government, but they're brave enough to detain him despite the pressure that will undoubtedly come from Hizbollah to release Hamadi. That's a damn sight better than the gutless wonders in Berlin that would rather let Hamadi go than to expose the poor dear to the death penalty in the United States, after trying him for a crime in which Germany had no jurisdiction in the first place.
Let's hope we can bring Hamadi to the US to give him the proper reception he deserves for torturing and killing an American, and send a message to the Islamist lunatics around the world: We don't forget. We will eventually find you, and when we do, we will show you we mean business.
Report is from the Captain's Quarter's:
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/
Medved is talking about this right now, and how the Germans did this after the Munich massacre.
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