Germany frees killer of U.S. diver

Oh, I quite agree. The difficulty is, as always, qui bono? Foreign relations have always been between governments, not people, for better or worse, and I get the sense that both have been profoundly misled in this matter and are likely to remain so until there appears an external threat to place our differences in perspective. The question is at that point will it be too late?

I speak as the most parochial of Americans in this, so make allowances, but it seems to me that Europe does not appreciate the current Islamist/West confrontation with the gravity it deserves. This isn't the United States pursuing empire or behaving within the old Marxian hegemonic paradigm that is the darling of academia these days, it is a sense of alarm over a threat that is very real and potentially potent far beyond the numbers of the peoples involved. Western technology is to thank for that, and Western resolve will either be sufficient to address this beyond the niceties of international law, (always the luxury of a peace bought in blood) or pretend that that law will somehow prevail over those who would supplant it with their own.

That resolve must be in the keeping of the respective peoples, not just the respective governments. And here I suggest that your argument is all too sound - that a Europe convinced for the most sordid and trivial of reasons that the United States is the principal threat to world peace will be incapable of recognizing the real threat before it comes crashing down and far more blood is spilt than needs to be. The system that freed Hamadi is a system that is being used against itself, and if its keepers do not realize this they will see it destroyed.

Oh, I quite agree. The difficulty is, as always, qui bono?

Quis, quid, ubi, quibus auxiliis, cur, quomodo, quando? It are always the same questions. Nothing changed since the old Romans. ;-)

Foreign relations have always been between governments, not people.

The problem in democracys is, that the will of the voters is transported after some time into practical policy. In the moment you Americans still deal with quite rational politicians like Blair or Merkel (to a lesser degree Sarkoszy). As I already said - this will not be that way forever. There is a "clash" between cultures. The thing is that this clash doesn't happen only between the islamic world and the western world, it happens also between Europe and America.

The question is at that point will it be too late?

I am quite sure that it is not too late. It is like in a family. You have no choice of your relatives. Sometimes there is are fierce arguments between brothers or sisters and sometimes they love each other. There is simply too much that is connecting us. The secret is simple: To maintain our friendship we have to work for it - on both sides.

The GDP of California is approximately ten times that of Austria. Not that we think about this every day, or that it is common knowledge. But the issue is that I think Austria has a different perspective of its importance to us. There are probably more Crips in LA than citizens in Graz.

We view Austrian insanity as an Austrian problem.

We are sorry Europe is turning into/has turned into a slow growth home of Socialism, for numerous reasons.

It is my expereince that you are inflating the extent of the Leftist nonsense in many of these countries. Most guys I work with over there are much more conservative, unfortuantlytheyfeel like "Massachusetts Conservatives" - that is 37% of that Left Wing state voted for Bush, yet are surrounded by a culture of weakness.

This situation may be a result of the "Pax Americana" Europe has been living under for 50 years - as an unintended consequence. Countries like Austria have not needed to be responsible for their own protection, leading to the development of this culture of weakness. We are fighting for Freedom. Austrian Leftists are fighting to rename a stadium in the name of a cold blooded murderer. We are not sure we want people like that for friends.

We have plenty of Americans who point out European values as those we should have here. In other words - we have enough enemies within our borders now, thank you.

We have people arguing in US court that these POWs need to be treated as regular criminals. It would be worse if they were in Texas, for instance.

As long as we are on the topic of POWS and their treatment - what makes us think Europe is nuts is fascination with US treatment of spies, with no attention paid to treatment of US POWs by Japan in WWII, or Vietnam, or Iraq, etc. For instance - Cuba is a prison state, with very low freedoms for all citizens, forget about how prisoners are treated. Where is the outrage in Europe? I could draw these comparisons all day long. European leftists are not interested in rule of law. They are interested in anti-US propaganda. They are at war with the US in the only way they can - the Left has already won most of Europe.

If I might add my $.02.

A large part of what drives American infuriation with European mores and "principles" is that Europe has become so enamored of their "multicultural diversity and cultural tolerance" that they no longer have the ability to withstand Islam.

It is almost as if Europeans are tired of being strong, and just want to give up and let the jihadists rule. And we can't understand it over here.

If jihadists in the United Stats were torching cars, Americans would simply walk out from their homes and begin summarily shooting them. (In most U.S. states you may use deadly force to prevent the commission of arson).

In Europe, by comparison, you seem to be willingly giving up your female children to racially and religiously motivated gang rape while abandoning entire areas to sharia rule.

We Americans don't understand why Europeans want to die.

As long as we are on the topic of POWS and their treatment - what makes us think Europe is nuts is fascination with US treatment of spies, with no attention paid to treatment of US POWs by Japan in WWII, or Vietnam, or Iraq, etc. For instance - Cuba is a prison state, with very low freedoms for all citizens, forget about how prisoners are treated. Where is the outrage in Europe? I could draw these comparisons all day long. European leftists are not interested in rule of law. They are interested in anti-US propaganda. They are at war with the US in the only way they can - the Left has already won most of Europe.

There is a very simple reason for this outrage. In difference to Japan (or Germany) in WWII, Vietnam or Iraq we see America still in the circle of civilized nations. Therefore we expect no primitive behaviour. We expect responsibility and maturity. A decisive reason for our differences in this case is probably, that contemporary Europeans see punishment usually as a way to correct the inmates, while in some states of your country it appears to us that revenge is clearly in the foreground. Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot. Simply archaic and old-testamentary revenge.

The ethic point of views are fundamentally unequal on both sides of the Atlantic. This has really nothing to do with the political direction of Europeans.

The countries of the European Union have a purchasing power parity of $11.65 trillion. This is slightly under the numbers of the world largest economy, the economy of the US with a GDP of $11.75 trillion. It is worth to think about these numbers if we talk about importance.

Austria is a small but really successfull part of the EU. Slightly smaller than Maine and (to European ratios) sparsley populated, it is a quite wealthy little country. Since I have already been in California and Austria (I was even in Graz) before, I probably would prefer Austra as a place to live in due to its beautiful mountains, my obsession for skiing and its really good political system (better than in California - this is for sure). Although I have to say that California has its amenities too. The views of Austrians are typical for most Europeans, although they are a bit more conservative in values (although they also had socialist gouvernments in the past - not now) due to the strong influence of the catholic church.

Countries like Austria have not needed to be responsible for their own protection, leading to the development of this culture of weakness.

This is completely wrong. Since Austria was always neutral (exept of being member in the EU) it never ever was under protection of the US. It never was a NATO member. They were free people being proud to be responsible of themselves. Of course they had a benefit of the static situation between the Warsaw pact and the NATO, but they were for sure not the reason for it.

Things are sometimes a littlebit different as they appear from the outside. I simply showed you this Arnie-Graz discussion to demonstrate the diffferences in thinking beween the European public and the American public. You should be careful with your devaluating condescending attitude towards smaller countries like Austria. You said that America is fighting for freedom. I also believe and hope that your country is in a struggle to bring freedom in this world. To do this, it needs friends and values that are respected by the rest of the world, since without those premises there would be no justification for this struggle.

BTW - Happy christmas! It is Christmas Eve here in Germany (although 7 o' clock in the morning).

If jihadists in the United Stats were torching cars, Americans would simply walk out from their homes and begin summarily shooting them. (In most U.S. states you may use deadly force to prevent the commission of arson).

Just like you did in 1992??!:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots

The recent riots in France were in fact quite simular to the Los Angeles outbursts of violence. There was no islamiac mastermind in the background. That were simply thousands of "no-future" kids out of muslim families playing "chaos". It has nothing to do with religion. The cars they torched were the cars of their parents. You can believe me, since I am quite often in Paris and I have some family there.

In Europe, by comparison, you seem to be willingly giving up your female children to racially and religiously motivated gang rape while abandoning entire areas to sharia rule.

Bullshi*! If somebody is offending my kids or my wife I will simply kill him. No matter if he comes from Marrakesh or Colorado. It is true that some countries inside the EU have dissatisfactory degrees of penalty, but it is ridicoulus to say that we are "giving up or female children to rape". You should wash your mouth out!

It is not revenge. That is so off base. The death penalty is a deterrent. Not to mention that few dead people come back to kill more - so works as a double deterrent.

I don't want to make a study of it - but for example -
http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/Articles/Pataki.htm

Funny you mention hand for hand etc. Where is the outcry when Iran and Iraq actually chop off hands and other body parts? If Iran is not in the "civilized world" - why is Europe negitiating over nukes with them (with extremely poor success, I might add)? How about supplying them with nuclear technology? You cannot hide behind ethics to explain this.

We had 59 death penalty executions last year. 59. The fact that Leftists play this up to be something that Europeans even know about is just buying into their agenda - allowing Leftists to control the agenda, trying to focus on the differnces between the Europe and US. We don't even agree state to state in the US as it is. Note the extremely limited conditions for New York in link.

I've seen data listing 3,400+ executions in China for 2004. Think those were for the same type reasons as in the New York link? The US is just an easy target for Leftist complaints.

You're right - the ethic view is different. Leftist Europeans would rather fault the US than face the reality of the rest of the world. This gives them no credibility. Do their "ethics" only apply to the US? Are their "ethics" variable - "well, the Iranians killed a handful, but what can we expect? We would much rather fault the Americans. It's easier, and the American Press wil lprint our bullshit."

It has everything to do with the politics of Europe that they fault the US and do not fault Leftist states such as Cuba.

A decisive reason for differences in this case is that Germany thinks 15 years for cold blooded murder is OK. We don't.

Why is it nessecary then to erect it outside the federal territory of the US?

You are truely uninformed - GITMO IS Federal Territory! Furthermore - what better place to hold prisoners than on an island where you have absolute control who gets in and out?

During WWII i.e. it was absolutely no problem to the US to keep German POWs on American territory.

It was also much clearer then "who" the enemy was - thus easier to protect the prisoners and the camps.

Are you offering we trade Austria for Maine? I will take it! Austria is great. I will take the people too - we have states just as leftist as Austria. The point is a few Leftists in Graz are getting attention for making trouble for the Governor who has a much bigger, and much tougher, job. And yes- they do have an inflated view of their importance in the world if they feel they need to weigh in on the functions of CA. Do you see Americans in mid size cities weighing in on Austrian affairs? Not that it is a good thing - but most of our folks couldn't find Austria on a map.

As you note - Austria is not CA - and has few of its problems that come with CA opportunities. CA has a much different population than Austria ....

As for Austrian Neutrality - always is kind of a big word. It applies only to the time period I pointed out - last 50 years. Longest period for Austrian peace. The main difference between last 50 - 60 years and prior history is ascendency of US as Superpower and strategy to contain Soviets at East Europe border. Exactly where do you think the Soviets would have gone if the US decided our borders ended at the coast of Maine? Or if we did not stand up for Austria in negotitations with Russia at end of WWII? Do you think the Austrians themselves won those negotiations? Yes - quite neutral and free. That is how their peace was negotiated. Austria did not drop from the sky that way. (I'm not saying it was all US doing - of course not - but ..... do they think France was watching out for their interests?)

I would hope the Austrians might see some similarities between their history and the Iraqi's.

I'm not trying to live in the past. I would take Austria any day. I would love to live there. (I drive two Alfa Romeos, if that says anything). But they most certainly have been living under Pax Americana for 50 years. And I do think that has led to unintended consequences.

Merry Christmas and Frohliche Weinachten

And good luck defending US agaisnt Euro Leftists -

Since the inmates are no POWs but simply terrorists they could claim the normal rights of a criminal if they would be arrested in the US.

Have your even READ the Geneva Conventions????

The status of these "detainees" is quite clear - they forfieted thier protections under the Conventions the moment they, as "civilians", bore arms or conspired to do so against the US - they are subject to MILITARY Jurisdiction - not Criminal - just READ the Conventions - it is VERY clear.

YEP! Just read it:

Third Geneva Convention (or GCIII)

(Art 4) "Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy"

o "Members of the armed forces"

o "militias...including those of organized resistance movements...having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance...conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war"

o "Persons who accompany the armed forces"

o "Members of crews...of the merchant marine and the crews of civil aircraft"

o "Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms"

I am a German, I own some good old German firearms and I know how to use them.

If somebody is a threat to my family, friends, neighbours or me, he could get into really heavy trouble. You should not forget, that Germans go free after 15 years if they committed a murder. Live is not over then. :-) I probably would be to intelligent for the dumb French police (they have one of the worst in the world) anyway.

I have enough French buddies who do and think exactly the same way. Those riots only could happen in big towns. If something like this would happen somewhere on the flat land in France you probably can read a search for some missing young guys from the local police a month later.

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.