NYT FRIDAY: Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the NSA has monitored international calls ...

Drudge Report ^ | 12/15/2005 | Matt Drudge

[One_who_hopes_to_know]

NYT FRIDAY: Under a presidential order signed in 2002, the NSA has monitored international calls and international e-mail messages of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people inside the United States without warrants... MORE...

[Bahbah]

It'll be interesting to see which Senator brings this story up today as a reason not to reauthorize it.

I'll give them this; they have their act well coordinated.

[satchmodog9]

yup

[satchmodog9]

bump

[Theophilus]

...and hence every terrorist attempt on US soil since 2001 has been a non-starter.

[sono]

This is news?

[Flightdeck]

The people supposedly spied on all had connections to al quaeda. Apparently, several terrorist plots were disrupted, as well.

[Toespi]

I remember this dramatic and fabulous speech so well, it was delivered from a true American patriot, it gave me comfort and security, but I also knew the gloves were off.

Excerpt/President Bush to the joint session of Congress, 9-20-01:

"We will direct every resource at our command -- every means of diplomacy, every tool of intelligence, every instrument of law enforcement, every financial influence, and every necessary weapon of war -- to the destruction and to the defeat of the global terror network.

Now, this war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion. It will not look like the air war above Kosovo two years ago, where no ground troops were used and not a single American was lost in combat.

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes visible on TV and covert operations secret even in success."

[nwrep]

I hope the NSA is monitoring Democratic senators.

I would like to amend that somewhat. Not so much Democratic Senators, but staffers of Democratic Senators. Some Senators are known to have staffers with family links to organizations like Human Rights Watch, Greenpeace, and anti-American newspapers like the Guardian.

[longtermmemmory]

I don't doubt for a second this story was held for "timing" reasons.

I think the left/democrats are terrified of the Patriot act because their financial ties to foreign powers are easier to expose.

[VeniVidiVici]

It was against the law for the NSA to intercept messages from the US.

No, it has not. Lookup USSID 18.

[P-40]

...this isn't just a coincidence and may well impact how legislators vote on the Patriot Act.


I think the probablility that this story was released to coincide with the Patriot Act debate is up there in the 100% range. That it also served to take the spotlight off the Iraqi elections was just icing on the cake...and that story started falling from view before my morning coffee was gone.

[Peach]

You're exactly correct. Sadly.

[NJ_gent]

"Abraham Lincoln even suspended habeas corpus during the civil war. That means the executive branch could arrest anyone and hold them without telling anyone the person had been arrested."

Declared illegal; Ex Parte Milligan (1866).

"To their family, friends and acquaintances they just disappeared. No one knew what happened to them. When their lawyers tried a writ of habeas corpus (do you have the body) the government refused to answer. They didn't answer in cases where they had the person under arrest and they refused to answer when they didn't have the person under arrest."

This doesn't bother you at all? This is the antithesis of the United States Constitution. And what happens when some rabid liberal like Hillary finds their way into the White House? Conceivably, they could have Jim Robinson, founder of this site, "disappeared". If that happened, and the information became public through anonymous sources, would you as vigorously support President Hillary's refusal to answer court challenges?

"The only real right we possess is the right to vote those whose actions we disapprove out of office."

If that's what this has come to, then my vote is that we burn this country to the ground right now. The sooner we start, the sooner we can get back to being a Constitutional Republic.

"If after the war, freedoms are not returned, we elect people who then give us back our freedom."

You seem to accept tyranny all too easily.

[NJ_gent]

"Echelon may be nothing more than a UK/USA agreement, but that has existed since post WWII and was effective during the Cold War."

The UK/USA agreement came after the beginnings of Echelon. Also, last I did research on the subject, Echelon was hosted in at least six different countries. Australia is another nation housing NSA property in NSA-controlled facilities, as is Canada.

"Until the EO or Patriot Act, NSA was forbidden from directing its surveillance towards Domestic targets."

It was my understanding that the NSA, like the CIA, was specifically denied the authority to operate domestically against US citizens in its charter. In that case, those NSA employees who reportedly refused to cooperate were very smart. Cooperating in this case could potentially risk the very existence of the agency. As well it should when they begin operating against US citizens on US soil.

[NJ_gent]

"I seem to recall a legal investigatory technique (used by Justice Dept. investigators for years) called the 'sneak and peek' in which investigators who are hot on the trail of a dastardly terrorist can slip a quick listen/peek to see if it would be justified to apply for a full wiretap."

What you're thinking of is the "sneak and peak" searches conducted by law enforcement agencies as authorized under the PATRIOT act. Basically, someone from the FBI submits a secret warrant request to a court that meets in secret (FISA), who then (in all but 1 case in the court's history) rubber stamps the warrant. At that point, while you're out of your house, government agents break into your home, search it, place listening devices, copy computer files, install trojan software onto your computer, and photograph anything they want inside the house, and then exit your house without leaving evidence or notice of their having been there.

Basically, sneak and peek allows the government to enter your home any time they wish without telling you. You'd never even know they were there unless they made a mistake.

[P-40]

You seem to accept tyranny all too easily.


But if it saves just one life! (TM, SM) :)

My understanding of this matter is that international traffic is monitored at times and that this practice has been going on for decades. I don't have a problem with *international* traffic being subject to monitoring for threat information without court approval but I would have a problem with *domestic* traffic getting the same treatment. The "breaking story" in the Times seems to be a non-story polished up to coincide with a political debate to influence that debate; this is not the function of a newpaper in my opinion.

[bert]

Pinch Pinch...... ASAP

[NJ_gent]

I think what they meant was that it's illegal for the NSA to intercept messages from US citizens on US soil, and that's correct. In fact, USSID 18 Sections 4 and 5 specifically say that communications which even refer to US citizens will not be intentially intercepted, and that the only exceptions still exclude US citizens on US soil, unless they're acting as foreign agents, and the information obtained is exclusively used for intelligence or counterintelligence. That precludes domestic law enforcement.

Here, I'll post them below:

SECTION 4 - POLICY

4.1. (C xxx) The SIGINT mission of the USSS includes the collection, processing, storage, and dissemination of foreign communications (plaintext and encrypted) passed by radio, wire, or other electromagnetic means. It is the poiicy of the USSS to target or collect foreign communications. The USSS will not intentionally collect the communications of U.S. persons or communications that refer to U.S. persons except as authorized pursuant to the procedures contained in this USSID or its annexes. The USSS will only process and disseminate communications of U.S. persons, or that refer to U.S. persons, as provided for in this USSID.

SECTION 5 - COLLECTION

5.1. (C xxx) The Director, NSA, will consider requests to collect the communications of U.S. persons, or communications that refer to U.S. persons, only if one of the following criteria is satisfied:

a. The U.S. person has given consent and has executed the consent form as set forth in Annex I. Once the consent form has been executed, the Director, NSA, may authorize the collection. The Director, NSA, shall notify the Anorney General of each consensual collection.

b. The U.S. person is a foreign power or an agent of a foreign power. The purpose of the collection must be the acquisition of foreign intelligence or counterintelligence. It is also necessary that the information be unobtainable by less intrusive techniques. In this case, the Director, NSA, may:

(1) Submit an application for the collection in accordance with the FISA when the U.S. person is in the United States and the communications sought are those of that U.S. person (see Annex A).

(2) Request the Anomey General to authorize collection when the U.S. person is outside the United States, when the U.S. person is in the United States and only communications that refer to that person are sought, or when a U.S. person as defined in Section 3.31.b. is in the United States

(3) Authorize the collection if an emergency situation exists and the U.S. person is outside the United States.

5.2. (C xxx) In emergency situations, the Director, NSA, may approve for foreign intelligence or countefintmgence purposes the collection of communications of U.S. persons, or communications that refer to U.S. persons, when such persons are outside the United States and when securing the prior approval of the Attorney General is not practical.

a. An emergency situation exists when:

(1) The time required to secure Attorney General approval would cause failure or delay in obtaining significant foreign intelligence or counterintelligence and such failure or delay wouid result in substantial harm to the national security;

(2) Any person's life or physical safety is reasonably believed to be in immediate danger; or

(3) The physical security of a Defense installation or government property is reasonably believed to be in immediate danger.

b. The Director, NSA, shall notify the DoD General Counsel and the Attorney General as soon as possible of the nature of the collection, the circumsiances surrounding its authorization, and the results thereof.

c Such collection may not continue longer than the time required for a decision by the Attorney General and in no event longer than 72 hours.

[12 lines censored]

[NJ_gent]

"I don't have a problem with *international* traffic being subject to monitoring for threat information without court approval but I would have a problem with *domestic* traffic getting the same treatment."

I have a problem with any domestically-based US citizen's traffic being monitored except under the reasonable provisions of USSID 18, regardless of the destination or the route of the communication. Otherwise, you open up all internet traffic (including email) of US citizens to domestic intelligence agency monitoring, and you potentially open telephone traffic up to domestic intelligence agency monitoring, depending on how the call is routed. When you call your mother, your call is going through numerous computers before it gets to her. If one of those computers just happens to reside outside US territory, are you ok with domestic intelligence agencies tapping your phone calls?