BYRD: "Amen!"
Posted on 12/14/2005 4:16:59 PM PST by SJackson
The debate in the Jewish world over whether an alliance with conservative Christians is desirable or wise reveals a complete disregard for the nature of political alliances in any political system throughout history. The debate is conducted at a childish level that would cause embarrassment in any other context. As such, there is an air of unreality about it that belies the reputation of the Jewish people for being clever.
Political alliances are not and have never been about whether allies love each other; rather, the nature of such associations is expressed in the well known maxim of Lord Palmerston, a 19th century British prime minister: Britain does not have permanent friends or permanent enemies, Britain has permanent interests.
Alliances are groupings based on mutual interests and needs that can best be met, or perhaps only be met, by associating with parties whose help is sought to meet those interests. A pertinent example is the de facto alliance between the secular Left and extremist Islam today — ideologically the two are poles apart, and extremist Muslims would have no hesitation in physically eradicating such people from any society they controlled. But the two perceive each other as useful (which of course brings to mind Lenin’s description of Western liberals and socialists who often allied themselves with Communists as “useful idiots”).
It is perfectly true that conservative American Christians and Jews who care about the Torah of Moses share many interests, values and morals. But then, religious — even extremist — Muslims and Jews also have much in common. Indeed, as Jews we probably have even more in common with our Ishmaelite cousins. Yet both Muslims and Christians think that as “non-believers” we are headed to Hell, and both groups would like to convert us.
Conservative Christians, however, are our allies in the current struggle for the land of Israel and the Muslims are our adversaries who wish to see the Jewish presence there — if not the Jews themselves — terminated. Whether conservative Christians want to convert us is politically irrelevant.
When Israel was founded, the Soviet Union was one of its important allies in the political arena and through its Czech puppet supplied the newborn state with the weapons it needed for survival in the 1948 war. After Russia’s interest — the expulsion of the British from the area — was met, the Soviets turned against Israel.
The same thing happened with France, which at one time was one of Israel’s key allies, supplying its air force and helping in the construction of its nuclear facilities. But with the ascent of Charles de Gaulle and a changed perception of French interests, France became Israel’s main European enemy. This is the nature of politics, and always has been.
There is, of course, one partial exception to the above rule, and that is the alliance between the United States and Israel. While it too is based on mutual interests, there is something else present. Walter Laqueur, the widely respected historian of Israel and Zionism, once said in a talk to a Jewish university group in London that his conclusion, after studying the American-Israeli relationship, was that beneath the standard politics there was a genuine American commitment to Israel that went far beyond mere political self-interest and that was nearly a moral commitment in itself.
To anyone who rationally looks at the world and what is happening in it, there is no doubt that conservative Christians — mostly but not exclusively American — are just about the only non-Jewish group allied with Israel in the struggle against the Palestinians and Muslims in general. Their reasons and interests are up-front and well known. It is said that Jews fear these allies because they wish to Christianize America. This is peculiar: America was always a Christian country, and in its heartland very much still is. Indeed, America is the only Christian country left in the Western world. There is not a single truly Christian country in Europe. (The UK is so secular that Christian Africa has been trying to convert it back to Christianity.)
No matter how successful conservative Christians are in Christianizing contemporary America, the country will remain considerably more secular than was the case until well into the 1970`s. In any case, the strong Christian cultural influence on American life during the first 200 years of the nation’s existence hardly impeded the development of Jewish life in the U.S.
It is not at all strange that allies of the present could be adversaries in the future and vice versa. You meet each crisis as it comes, if it comes. What is it that many Jews really fear from the perceived power of the Christian Right? They fear for the secular leftist causes, beliefs, practices and values that they espouse and hold dear. But then, Torah Judaism is even stronger in its opposition to what these secular Jews believe and how they define themselves.
It is said that Jews fear conservative Christians because they wish to convert us. Indeed they do. But so what? Secularists, especially leftists and liberals, also seek to convert the Jews — to their ideology, world outlook, lifestyle, values, and morals. Many on the Left, going back to Karl Marx, see the very existence of the Jews, especially Torah-observant Jews, as a problem — and the cause of many if not all of the evils in the world.
Today it is leftists and liberals, not conservative Christians, who threaten the existence of the Jews as a people and who stand in opposition to various aspects of Judaism. Here in the UK, shechita and Jewish education are not under attack by fundamentalist Christians, but by secular leftists.
Furthermore, because we accept the help of conservative Christians in one sphere, it doesn’t mean we can’t oppose them when it comes to specific policies that threaten Jewish interests in other areas. You cannot do this with a good many leftists and liberals, whose opposition to Judaism, like that of fundamentalist Muslims, is existential and total.
As touched on above, the reason many Jews are reluctant to acknowledge or accept any alliance with conservative Christians — when clearly it is secular liberals who are the greater threat, both immediate and long term — is that such an alliance exposes a major fault line among those who call themselves Jews, a fault line many Jews prefer to pretend does not exist.
Namely, it makes salient the division between secular and Reform Jews on the one hand, and Torah-observant Jews on the other. It reveals to one and all that there is not one Jewish people, but at least two, and that these two peoples are often highly antagonistic to one another, each with a different conception of what “Jewish” means. Each has different interests, and these interests frequently clash.
Life would be so much easier for many Jews if conservative Christians were open, rabid anti-Semites. Unfortunately for such Jews, these are found largely on the Left.
Levi Sokolic is an anthropologist and IT consultant living in the UK. His doctoral thesis examined the adaptation of Orthodox Jewish society to the social and cultural changes of the 19th and 20th centuries.
Amen!
Yes, that's true, but that came later after they served his purpose. Lets also not forget that there are 2 different kinds of Jews were are talking about. Those evil ones still have control in Russia's elite dark underside. They aren't really "Jews" at all. They are true communists.
"Life would be so much easier for many Jews if conservative Christians were open, rabid anti-Semites. Unfortunately for such Jews, these are found largely on the Left."
Fundamentalist chr*stians and those from a Fundamentalist chr*stian background (including yours truly) don't really see an absolute non-missionary position as the "moral high ground." The world is full of people who are starving for Truth and the only people who aren't in there giving it to them is the one people who has it. Also an absolutist non-missionary position (tee-hee--"missionary position!"--snigger, snigger) implies that there is no One Universal Truth that applies to all. I very much understand that Jews have never been charged of making the human race Jewish but that does not mean they are not charged with teaching the Truth to all mankind.
Plus do you know how confusing it is to be told that your religion is just fine and dandy by someone who would rather die than convert to it? That doesn't make any sense.
I plan be`ezrat HaShem to write an essay on proselytization (and the sore point it constitutes in Jewish/chr*stian relations) in the near future at my web site.
I wouldn't exactly call folks like Berozovsky "Communists." They are more like the Russian Jewish equivalent of La Cosa Nostra.
The only true communists in the world today are in North Korea, Cuba, and American college campuses.
I suppose I meant the higher ground in the sense that Jews have not used force to create converts to their religion.
Jesus Christ himself was Jewish....
The Choosen people biblically means that the 'house of David' was the tribe was chosen to be the one from which "the anointed one" Christ was to rise from. This has been completed. All mankind decents from the twelve tribes, which makes us all chosen, and equal.
There is no longer a 'chosen' people.
No but in non-mandatory wars (milchamot-reshut) people were given a choice of accepting the Noachide commandments and paying tribute or death. As a matter of fact, I believe in the coming War of Gog and Magog Mashiach will fulfill the duty originally gave to Moses (according to RaMBa"M): "compelling" (on pain of death) the nations of the world to adopt the Noachide Laws.
Then of course there are the mandatory wars (malchamot-mitzvah) in which the Seven Nations of Canaan and `Amaleq were to be utterly exterminated--men, women, children, and animals.
And I forgot the `ir haniddachat (a Jewish city that had strayed into idolatry) which was to be similarly exterminated and never built back provided all the criteria were met.
Granted, all the above are the commandments of the Living G-d but all religions believe they are similarly justified.
The point I'm trying to make is that Judaism is not the super liberal, super tolerant, absolutely-unstained-by-blood religion that most people today think it is. And it is precisely because Fundamentalist Protestants derive their knowledge of Jews and Judaism from the Book of Joshua rather than the National Jewish Democratic Council that liberal Jews so hate and despise them.
Unfortunately, the sad case of Jews who convert to chr*stianity (usually Fundamentalist Protestantism) gives a superficial unity to all Jews, Orthodox or liberal, who rightly condemn and oppose them. But Orthodox Jews condemn them for deserting the Torah while liberal Jews merely take advantage of the situation to create the impression that Judaism cannot tolerate religiosity.
Before Christ, we used to use the temple to offer sacrifices to God. Christ replaced that with himself. There is no longer any need for the temple, and Christ said so himself. That religion is dead and gone forever, what emerged from it was Judaism and Christianity.
I have a question: Why do you put an asterisk in the word chr*stian yet you do not capitalize the proper name?
Sorry,
has nothing to do with the rest of your post.
In adding this bit you place yourself in the very place I think you wanted to condemn....judging people by what they 'are' rather than what they 'do'.
"Failure to communicate" is not only inadequate, it's a cliche!
That 'black ministers' used it as a political lever on the President does not lend an iota of credibility to that cliche - it's used in that case as an alibi and must be answered with "it takes two to communicate" and "communication does not guarantee validity of the information being communicated".
True, faith and works are not the same, I believe that the Catholic Church held that against the Templars at one time and most bedrock believers abide by belief over works even today.
That would include bedrock socialists equally with bedrock fundamentalists.
In fact, "works" & "faith" apply to our present difficulties; blowing ourself up is a piece of work, driven by a perverse faith, but it is pretty clear communication.
"Life would be so much easier for many Jews if conservative Christians were open, rabid anti-Semites. Unfortunately for such Jews, these are found largely on the Left."
Go to any liberal website and the bigotry there would make a klansman proud.
BYRD: "Amen!"
There is no longer a 'chosen' people.
That makes G-d out to be a liar.
LostTribe, is that you?
Do I dare ask or will the reply shut down my server? ; (
How so?
Thank you rdb3 for the appreciated knowledge.
read your bible.
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