Posted on 12/14/2005 4:16:59 PM PST by SJackson
The debate in the Jewish world over whether an alliance with conservative Christians is desirable or wise reveals a complete disregard for the nature of political alliances in any political system throughout history. The debate is conducted at a childish level that would cause embarrassment in any other context. As such, there is an air of unreality about it that belies the reputation of the Jewish people for being clever.
Political alliances are not and have never been about whether allies love each other; rather, the nature of such associations is expressed in the well known maxim of Lord Palmerston, a 19th century British prime minister: Britain does not have permanent friends or permanent enemies, Britain has permanent interests.
Alliances are groupings based on mutual interests and needs that can best be met, or perhaps only be met, by associating with parties whose help is sought to meet those interests. A pertinent example is the de facto alliance between the secular Left and extremist Islam today — ideologically the two are poles apart, and extremist Muslims would have no hesitation in physically eradicating such people from any society they controlled. But the two perceive each other as useful (which of course brings to mind Lenin’s description of Western liberals and socialists who often allied themselves with Communists as “useful idiots”).
It is perfectly true that conservative American Christians and Jews who care about the Torah of Moses share many interests, values and morals. But then, religious — even extremist — Muslims and Jews also have much in common. Indeed, as Jews we probably have even more in common with our Ishmaelite cousins. Yet both Muslims and Christians think that as “non-believers” we are headed to Hell, and both groups would like to convert us.
Conservative Christians, however, are our allies in the current struggle for the land of Israel and the Muslims are our adversaries who wish to see the Jewish presence there — if not the Jews themselves — terminated. Whether conservative Christians want to convert us is politically irrelevant.
When Israel was founded, the Soviet Union was one of its important allies in the political arena and through its Czech puppet supplied the newborn state with the weapons it needed for survival in the 1948 war. After Russia’s interest — the expulsion of the British from the area — was met, the Soviets turned against Israel.
The same thing happened with France, which at one time was one of Israel’s key allies, supplying its air force and helping in the construction of its nuclear facilities. But with the ascent of Charles de Gaulle and a changed perception of French interests, France became Israel’s main European enemy. This is the nature of politics, and always has been.
There is, of course, one partial exception to the above rule, and that is the alliance between the United States and Israel. While it too is based on mutual interests, there is something else present. Walter Laqueur, the widely respected historian of Israel and Zionism, once said in a talk to a Jewish university group in London that his conclusion, after studying the American-Israeli relationship, was that beneath the standard politics there was a genuine American commitment to Israel that went far beyond mere political self-interest and that was nearly a moral commitment in itself.
To anyone who rationally looks at the world and what is happening in it, there is no doubt that conservative Christians — mostly but not exclusively American — are just about the only non-Jewish group allied with Israel in the struggle against the Palestinians and Muslims in general. Their reasons and interests are up-front and well known. It is said that Jews fear these allies because they wish to Christianize America. This is peculiar: America was always a Christian country, and in its heartland very much still is. Indeed, America is the only Christian country left in the Western world. There is not a single truly Christian country in Europe. (The UK is so secular that Christian Africa has been trying to convert it back to Christianity.)
No matter how successful conservative Christians are in Christianizing contemporary America, the country will remain considerably more secular than was the case until well into the 1970`s. In any case, the strong Christian cultural influence on American life during the first 200 years of the nation’s existence hardly impeded the development of Jewish life in the U.S.
It is not at all strange that allies of the present could be adversaries in the future and vice versa. You meet each crisis as it comes, if it comes. What is it that many Jews really fear from the perceived power of the Christian Right? They fear for the secular leftist causes, beliefs, practices and values that they espouse and hold dear. But then, Torah Judaism is even stronger in its opposition to what these secular Jews believe and how they define themselves.
It is said that Jews fear conservative Christians because they wish to convert us. Indeed they do. But so what? Secularists, especially leftists and liberals, also seek to convert the Jews — to their ideology, world outlook, lifestyle, values, and morals. Many on the Left, going back to Karl Marx, see the very existence of the Jews, especially Torah-observant Jews, as a problem — and the cause of many if not all of the evils in the world.
Today it is leftists and liberals, not conservative Christians, who threaten the existence of the Jews as a people and who stand in opposition to various aspects of Judaism. Here in the UK, shechita and Jewish education are not under attack by fundamentalist Christians, but by secular leftists.
Furthermore, because we accept the help of conservative Christians in one sphere, it doesn’t mean we can’t oppose them when it comes to specific policies that threaten Jewish interests in other areas. You cannot do this with a good many leftists and liberals, whose opposition to Judaism, like that of fundamentalist Muslims, is existential and total.
As touched on above, the reason many Jews are reluctant to acknowledge or accept any alliance with conservative Christians — when clearly it is secular liberals who are the greater threat, both immediate and long term — is that such an alliance exposes a major fault line among those who call themselves Jews, a fault line many Jews prefer to pretend does not exist.
Namely, it makes salient the division between secular and Reform Jews on the one hand, and Torah-observant Jews on the other. It reveals to one and all that there is not one Jewish people, but at least two, and that these two peoples are often highly antagonistic to one another, each with a different conception of what “Jewish” means. Each has different interests, and these interests frequently clash.
Life would be so much easier for many Jews if conservative Christians were open, rabid anti-Semites. Unfortunately for such Jews, these are found largely on the Left.
Levi Sokolic is an anthropologist and IT consultant living in the UK. His doctoral thesis examined the adaptation of Orthodox Jewish society to the social and cultural changes of the 19th and 20th centuries.
Ping!
I couldn't disagree more. I would say that a far more accurate statement would be that "anybody who is afraid of being converted to any other religion has little or no faith in their own. Period.
People of weak faith scream the loudest.
This is true.
Yes. Poland, too, is a Catholic country.
I think that you don't understand this aspect of Judaism. We are the "Chosen People," but not in any elitist sort of way - it is a mission statement, since we were chosen by G-d to show the rest of humanity the right way to do things. Judaism isn't, however, exclusive. A person can be rewarded in the afterlife without being Jewish, simply by obeying the 7 Noahide laws - if they chose to worship G-d differently, that is fine by G-d, since He just wants humanity as a whole to be more moral in practice than it is (or has ever been). Jews have more obligations than that, which is part of the burden of being chosen. We are supposed to be teachers by example. Conversion of others is actually supposed to be difficult - they have to really want to become Jews.
As a fundamentalist Christian, I find that accusation to be very disturbing. The entire world killed Him, and He willing gave Himself for that sacrifice.
I was right there pounding the nails along with everyone else.
I'm saying that God's designation of "Chosen People" in the OT was based on genetics.
I'm pointing out that most people that call themselves 'Jewish' today are Gentiles, not Hebrews. Hebrew is a race. Judaism is a religion. I am not Jewish today, but could be tomorrow by changing my religion.God's promise was to those of the Hebrew race.
Not according to the bible...but at least I understand where you're confused. Thanks for the clarification.
You said, "The Choosen people biblically means that the 'house of David' was the tribe was chosen to be the one from which "the anointed one" Christ was to rise from. This has been completed. All mankind decents from the twelve tribes, which makes us all chosen, and equal.
There is no longer a 'chosen' people."
Your post is so full of outright falsehoods and wholesale ignorance of history and religion that it almost isn't worth a response, but I'll do so anyway.
Put simply, you don't have a single clue as to what you are talking about, to wit:
1) The Chosen People is NOT the House of David - the Chosen People is the House of Jacob/Israel, which is the 12 tribes. David was born roughly 500 years after Jacob's children, and the Jews were called the "Chosen People" by G-d long before his birth. Oh, and by the way, this status also extends to anyone from any race, nation or religion who sincerely wishes to join the Jewish People, as evidenced by the not-so-easy process of converting.
2) The House of David is not a tribe at all. David was descended from the tribe of Judah.
3) While it is true that the Moschiach/Messiah is to be a male descendant of David on his father's side, that's not all - he must also be a descendant of King Solomon. There are many other criteria as well, but no one in history has even come close to fulfilling the job description of the Messiah, according to Jewish law and tradition (for more information, see http://www.jewsforjudaism.org/web/handbook/s_messiah.html )
4) All mankind does NOT descend from the 12 tribes - this is the first time that I've EVER seen or heard of anyone claiming this fantastic notion. Maybe you should check your facts and your history.
5) Your claim that there is no longer a "chosen" people is simply wrong - and it displays your utter ignorance of what the term "chosen" means in this context. First of all, G-d indicates in the Bible (what you'd probably call the Old Testament) that the Jews are His Chosen People. For G-d to withdraw that status would mean that He is a liar, which I daresay is the furthest thing from the truth. Second, the concept of "chosen" has everything to do with a mission (i.e. a burden) and nothing whatsoever to do with any notion of racial/genetic superiority. The fact that Judaism accepts converts from any racial background proves that, as does the fact that Judaism explicitly recognizes that non-Jews will be rewarded in the afterlife by leading a moral life on earth (accomplished by obeying the 7 Noahide Laws).
You really need to read a lot more about history, and about Judaism in particular, before spouting off on these issues.
Sorry, wrong answer. It is based on those who choose to follow G-D's Laws.
God did choose the Jews to be the race to carry the message (Gospels) of God's commandments and God's "directions" to the people of the world. Always such message was to be given to all other people as well.
however, the initial approach was not completely successful (just like the Adam and Eve approach was not successful) and God decided that he would need to send a representative, Messiah, to more clearly define for man what God desired (while always keeping intact free-will).
Thus, God told the Jews that a Messiah would come (described in Isaiah).
The Messiah came, His name was Jesus. he was to set an example and to show irrefutably that God exists and that God would like for the people to obey and carry His commands to all the other people. The primary command was to love God. the second was to love thy neighbopur.
Many jews in power at the time were not ready to lose their power to the Messiah (because Jesus proclaimed that any and all men could come to God and challenged their authority over the people.) Thus they chose to refuse to believe Jesus was the true Messiah.
Jesus specifically sent disciples out into the gentile world (non-Jew) to grow the church and baptise converts. The most famous was Paul who was the "founder" of the catholic church in Europe and who wrote several important parts of the Bible (Romans, Acts...)
Other disciples went to other parts of the world (Arabia, Asia..) to expand Christianity there. The Orthodox Christian religion, and Coptics, for instance, which are both older than Catholicism. (because catholic church wasn't formally established for about 350 years after St. Paul)
Very, very important: Nobody becomes a Christian by following the teachings of Jesus Christ. You can ONLY become a Christian by accepting Jesus as your personal Lord and Saviour. You must ask Him to come into your heart and let you know He is the real Messiah. Only in this way will you feel the power of the Holy Spirit come into your being and become the light of your life.
Thisd is true for all people, Jew or Chrisitan, or otherwise. Jews were chosen but they are not saved unless they accept the Messiah as their Lord and Saviour.
My wife is a completed Jew. At age 43 she asked Christ to be her Lord and Saviour and she had a powerful epiphany and was immediately overwhelmed with tears of joy and peace.
With 100% scientific certainty I can tell you Jesus is the real messiah. It is not a faith or a belief anymore than the "belief" that eating food will keep you alive. (The "scientific" part is the tabulation of scientists who have personally experienced the same thing.)
Furthermore, no man can convert you. You cannot be converted to Christianity by force or persuasion. Only by reading the words of the New testament, Christs words, can you come to understanding that will lead you to ask Christ into your soul.
This is why my wife suddenly knew that the Jews who refused to believ Christ was the real Messiah were dead wrong. She experienced the truth for herself.
Since salvation is a personal matter, we cannot prove it the way we prove gravity exists. We can only prove it the way we prove love exists. By personal testimony and by resultant actions and behaviour.
Accepting Christ makes us better people. That is also irrefutably proven. (Many people who claim they are Christians are most defintiely not, they also do not act true like Christians).
The Catholic church is often seen as synonymous with Christianity. It definitiely should not be so. Catholciism is a hybrid of a personality cult, authoritarianism and Christianity. It's unchristianlike behaviour over the centuries has harmed the cause of Christianity.
No man, no authority stands between you and God, except Jesus Christ. Only throuh Him can you establish a personal relationship with God. No actions can bring you to Christ except that of accepting Him as your Lord and Saviour.
You can be the greatest philanthropist the world has ever know, giving millions to charity and never saying a harsh word, but you will not be saved. Only through Christ...
You will never doubt the truth once you ask Christ into your life. it is incredible. It is like a new "love" or new passion springs to life inside your soul, but it is still different and unique. That is the power of the Holy Spirit.
You have nothing to lose but you have eternal life to gain.
(please excuse typos...)
Thus they are in need of Jesus Christ.
Faith without works is dead...James.
Both have their place. But it is generally true that white conservatives are interested in "how conservative are you... what are your exceptions." In general, at least in Illinois, they are not much concerned with what a person does with his ideological position.
In Illinois, this is especially true of the pro-life movement. Every January they have a big pro-life rally in a hotel ballroom, big name speakers and workshops. Take a survey and you'll find out that a high percentage of the attendees are not registered to vote.
Suggest to the leaders of the pro-life movement that voter registration be done at the pro-life rally and they are near unanimously opposed. They oppose any action beyond whining and puffing up their own chests about how pure they are that they don't get their hands dirty with things like politics.
Likewise at an annual picnic of regular GOP organizations, attempts to do voter registration are vocally opposed, especially by the conservative leaders despite the fact that it is the conservatives at the GOP picnic who are not registered to vote. The pro-abort "Republicans" at the picnic are almost certainly registered.
Thank you for the lesson, I am a christan not a Jew, and as I am not well educated on these matters I do enjoy reading the thoughts of others who know far more then I. Thanks again.
Actually I understand all of that. What you do not seem to understand is that a correct observance of the Seven Noachide Laws is incompatible with the observance of other religions (chr*stianity, islam, sikhism, b*ddhism, etc.) and that mankind as part of the Noachide Code was forbidden to create new religions or holidays for themselves. Now the fact remains that G-d judges each individual by what is in his heart so it certainly does not mean that eternal damnation awaits every person who does not become a formal Noachide, but this is still the objective obligation of each and every non-Jewish human being.
The "live and let live" attitude of most Jews today does not come from the Torah but from thousands of years of living in a situation where giving religious instruction to someone else would have resulted in severe punishment, perhaps a massacre of the entire Jewish population.
Bottom line, ultimately it is the objective duty of each and every human being to cast off all man-made religions and become formal, practicing Noachides--and it is the objective duty of Israel to (in the words of RaMBa"M) "compel" this.
Listen, giving up chr*stmas (which I did fifteen years ago) is rough to someone who grew up with it. I didn't give it up because it was voluntary to do so. So I must reiterate that a "non-missionary" attitude ultimately makes no sense if an objective truth exists. But as I said, I plan ('im yirtzeh HaShem) to write an essay on this subject in the near future on my web site.
I agree. Further Evengelical Christianity is thriving in South America.
The Chief Priests were Saducees not Pharisees.
I'm sorry, you have the wrong answer.
If it were based, in the OT, on following G-D's Laws the Israelites would have been dumped by G-D many times over.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.