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Hollowed bullet easy to get & hard to survive
NY Daily News ^ | 12/12/05 | ALISON GENDAR and DAVE GOLDINER

Posted on 12/13/2005 9:20:22 AM PST by kiriath_jearim

Hollowed bullet easy to get & hard to survive

BY ALISON GENDAR and DAVE GOLDINER DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS

Hollow-point bullets like the one used in the slaying of Officer Daniel Enchautegui are much deadlier than ordinary bullets - and nearly as easy to get.

Cops favor using the hollow-point bullets because they are less likely to pass through a target and ricochet into a fellow cop or bystander.

But they want their public sale banned to keep them out of the hands of thugs like Enchautegui's alleged killers, Steven Armento and Lillo Brancato.

"Our mission is to stop violent felons," said Patrolmen's Benevolent Association President Patrick Lynch. "There is no reason for anyone else to have that ability."

Armento allegedly shot Enchautegui with his father's .357-caliber handgun, loaded with the hollow-point bullets.

Anyone with a gun permit can buy the hollow-points in a gun shop. They also are readily available on the black market.

"Anybody can go out and buy them," said Michael Palladino, head of the Detectives' Endowment Association.

The main difference between hollow-point and regular, "full-metal jacket" bullets is that the hollow-points flatten on impact and expand inside a target.

The NYPD switched to the new ammo in 1999.

"They are less likely to penetrate the intended target and hit a bystander," said Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne.

An on-duty cop's bulletproof vest would likely provide the same protection from a hollow-point as a regular bullet.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Government; US: New York
KEYWORDS: ammo; banglist; bradywatch; hollowpoints
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To: kiriath_jearim

So I guess if the cop was shot with a FMJ he would have lived?

What a stupid article.


81 posted on 12/13/2005 10:45:25 AM PST by lwd
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To: Travis McGee; backhoe

"The only thing that could have saved them, was another group of hard men, with guns in hand. Think about that for a while".

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1533337/posts?page=27#27


82 posted on 12/13/2005 10:47:41 AM PST by planekT (<- http://www.wadejacoby.com/pedro/ ->)
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To: beebuster2000
odd that the reverse is generally true under geneva convention, i believe. no doubt a freeper will double check me on that.

'twas an amendment to the Hague Convention of 1899 - which the USA did NOT sign. Jacketed hollow/soft-points were new and unusual at the time; now, 106 years later, they're the norm.

83 posted on 12/13/2005 10:50:19 AM PST by ctdonath2
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To: pbrown
****Is the 'Talon' still out there somewhere? I haven't heard about them in a while.****

yep, available here ---->> GunsAmerica (Its kind of like an eBay for firearms.)
IIRC Talons are $50.00 a box.

84 posted on 12/13/2005 10:51:10 AM PST by Condor51 (Leftists are moral and intellectual parasites - Standing Wolf)
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To: kiriath_jearim

You can probably produce them in your basement.

So what??

Its the nut behind the gun, not the bullet who amkes the decision to do the killing.

But the same jerks who defended Tookie Williams are in the forefront of harassing law-abiding gun-owners.


85 posted on 12/13/2005 10:55:10 AM PST by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis, Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts, and guns made America great.)
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To: kiriath_jearim

Illegal to hunt deer in Kentucky with full metal jacketed ammo. Hollow points are the most proficient.


86 posted on 12/13/2005 10:57:08 AM PST by WKUHilltopper
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To: pbrown

get on gunbroker.com search for black talons. there's usually a number of them for sale.


87 posted on 12/13/2005 10:58:17 AM PST by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: ConservativeBamaFan
***Was the officer not wearing his vest?***

If Officer Enchautegui is the one I'm thinking of (read it in the NY Post last week), he DID have a vest on and was shot by 'luck' in the armpit.

88 posted on 12/13/2005 11:02:49 AM PST by Condor51 (Leftists are moral and intellectual parasites - Standing Wolf)
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To: Condor51

Got it screen bookmarked. Thanks. I must have been looking too hard. $50.00----how many in a box?


89 posted on 12/13/2005 11:03:12 AM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: kiriath_jearim

eh.. i'd rather use glassers or frangibles for home defense anyway :)


90 posted on 12/13/2005 11:03:20 AM PST by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: kiriath_jearim

Can't hollow points be cast at home as easily as solid bullet?


91 posted on 12/13/2005 11:03:52 AM PST by em2vn
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To: absolootezer0

Thanks. I'll go there now.


92 posted on 12/13/2005 11:08:04 AM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: pbrown
Thanks. I'm curious of the damage they cause. I've heard stories but, not actually seen their aftermath. I remember when Dr's were screaming for them to be outlawed because of what they did to their fingers when they thought they were just taking out regular bullets.

Modern hollow points penetrate, then mushroom so they come to a rapid stop. The mushroom increases the surface area and ensure delivering the kinetic energy to the target. An FMJ usually retains its shape and goes straight through soft tissue. Hitting bone changes the results dramatically. The projectile frequently shatters.

A hollow point is preferable to avoid having the round go through the intended target. The reduced penetration applies to household walls as wells. It's just a much better choice.

93 posted on 12/13/2005 11:13:33 AM PST by Myrddin
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To: pbrown
***$50.00----how many in a box?***

You're welcome.
IIRC it was 20 in the box. That's to pricey for me.

I use have Glaser Safety Slugs for my Makarov, some old SuperVels for my .38 Colt (those things kick ass, wish they were still made) and Federal Hydra-Shok for my 9mm

And naturally some 'run of the mill' jacketed hollow points and some 'ball ammo' too.

94 posted on 12/13/2005 11:28:01 AM PST by Condor51 (Leftists are moral and intellectual parasites - Standing Wolf)
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To: najida

"Somewhere in a drawer in my house is a box of Black Talons."

Hey, now! Them there are them cop-killer bullets. I'm going to tell on you! [grin]


95 posted on 12/13/2005 11:30:10 AM PST by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: kiriath_jearim

Hell with hollow points, I always found the gel ones far more cool...

Pass through soft tissue no problem, but far less likely to pass through walls and other objects.


96 posted on 12/13/2005 11:38:12 AM PST by HamiltonJay
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To: absolootezer0
Wow. It's like gun heaven over there. Not only Talons, but such a variety of weapons. Talons for hubby's 30.06 $50.00 for box of 20. I'll make sure I show him the site when he gets home. I thought $1.00 each for my .303 was a bit steep.

He'll be wanting some of those. Thanks for the site.

97 posted on 12/13/2005 11:38:31 AM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: kiriath_jearim
"They are less likely to penetrate the intended target and hit a bystander," said Deputy Police Commissioner Paul Browne.

One would hope that any bullet penetrates. It's passing through and hitting an unintended target that the hollow points are used by the NY police

98 posted on 12/13/2005 11:49:20 AM PST by LoneRangerMassachusetts (Some say what's good for others, the others make the goods; it's the meddlers against the peddlers)
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To: Myrddin; Condor51
I was just trying to picture when it would be necessary for Talons. Looks to me like the hallow-point would be my way to go. After reading condors link, too much of a bullet for me. I believe hubby will like some though.

I'll stick with my .303 for long range, my 12 ga. up close, and my mini revolver for in my face nose to nose close.

Thanks for the link.

99 posted on 12/13/2005 12:00:08 PM PST by processing please hold (Islam and Christianity do not mix ----9-11 taught us that)
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To: kiriath_jearim
Most of the coments made in this article, either directly or by implication, are sort of stupid

Except in faciast communities like NYC or New Jersey, anyone over the age of 18 can buy hollow point ammo at their local Walmart

There is NOTHING uniqely potent about hollow point ammo. It expands - big deal, so does soft point and unjacketed lead. It just expands faster than jacketed soft point - because jacketed soft point is designed to expand slower to facilitate greater penetration.

Because of the fast expansion, hollow point is a great bullet design for hunting varmints and small game - loaded in a high velocity round you get high expansion very rapidly in only a couple of inches.

For the same reason, most hollow point bullets don't work all that well as a defensive round - they expand too quickly, resulting in relatively shallow penetration.

A bullet kills by penetrating deeply anough to reach large blood vessels and major organs, and by creating a big enough permanant hole to seriously damage or destroy same. A great deal of pharensic evidence exists to demonstrate that a round needs to reliably penetrate 8 - 12" of ballistic gelatin to be a reliable stopper. A lot of "home defense" and specialty "low penetration" ammo fails to do this.

The most effective defensive rounds for pistols include soft points and jacketed hollow points, but the JHP tend to be big (150 grain 357 mag, 147 grain 9mm, 170 grain .40) and either pretty high velocity (giving you good penetration despite the expansion, in the case of the 357 and 40) or relatively resistant to expansion (in the case of the 147 grain subsonic used by lots of police departments)

Honestly, the only thing that I have learned from the various articles posted about ammo and the NYPD (other than they use FMJ for their pistol ammo, which is a change from the days when everyone used unjacketed 38 ammo in their revolvers) is that most "journalists" don't know anything about guns or ammunition.

100 posted on 12/13/2005 12:23:36 PM PST by jscd3
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