Posted on 12/08/2005 6:54:56 AM PST by jackbenimble
(CNSNews.com) - Illegal aliens who work under borrowed, stolen or fraudulent Social Security numbers could collect retirement benefits based on their illegal earnings as the result of a Bush administration plan. Critics charge the federal government has grossly underestimated the cost of the proposal, which they believe could run be billions of dollars per year.
Congress is expected to vote on some combination of proposed changes to immigration laws as early as next week, according to sources working with the House Homeland Security and Judiciary committees. While members have not been able to reach agreement on the details of a temporary or "guest worker" program advocated by President Bush, the White House might use the legislative opportunity to seek approval for an International Social Security Agreement with Mexico, something it has wanted for more than two years.
Mark Kirkorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, told Cybercast News Service that the arrangements, usually called "totalization agreements," with industrialized countries like Canada, the United Kingdom and even France are beneficial. But those benefits, he argued, would not come from an agreement with Mexico.
"The point to a totalization agreement is for two advanced countries that occasionally send corporate transferees from one country to the next for a two or three year stint to be able to reconcile their respective retirement systems," Kirkorian said. "It's not for a third world country that sends millions of peasants into a developed country to take advantage of; there's a complete mismatch, an imbalance."
Kirkorian points out a number of differences between the U.S. and Mexican Social Security systems including:
Workers are vested in the U.S. system in 10 years versus 24 years in Mexico;
The U.S. pays greater benefits to lower income workers whereas Mexico pays out only the premiums paid in, plus accrued interest; and
Most Mexican workers avoid their country's Social Security system by working in the "underground economy," while most U.S. workers have Social Security taxes automatically collected from their wages.
The U.S. has entered into totalization agreements with 20 countries since 1978. The Social Security Administration (SSA) describes the arrangements on its website:
"[These] agreements have two main purposes. First, they eliminate dual Social Security taxation -- the situation that occurs when a worker from one country works in another country and is required to pay Social Security taxes to both countries on the same earnings," the SSA site explains. "Second, the agreements help fill gaps in benefit protection for workers who have divided their careers between the United States and another country."
Congress does not have to give approval for the totalization agreements, but lawmakers are given the opportunity to vote them down. SSA Commissioner Jo Anne Barnhart explained the benefits of totalization for U.S. employers and employees during her Sept. 11, 2003 testimony to the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Claims.
"Without totalization the combined Social Security tax rate that U.S. employers and employees working in foreign countries must pay often approaches 40 percent or more of total payroll," Barnhart testified.
In March of 2003, the SSA's Office of the Chief Actuary estimated that a totalization agreement with Mexico would cost the U.S. $78 million in the first year, growing to $650 million (in constant 2002 dollars) by 2050. That determination assumed that the initial number of newly eligible Mexican recipients would be equal to the 50,000 beneficiaries then living in Mexico, and that the eligible number would grow to only 300,000 over the next 48 years.
But the agency now known as the Government Accountability Office (GAO) GAO report disputed that estimate.
"[T]his proxy figure does not directly consider the estimated millions of current and former unauthorized workers and family members from Mexico and appears small in comparison with those estimates," the GAO determined. "The estimate also inherently assumes that the behavior of Mexican citizens would not change and does not recognize that an agreement could create an additional incentive for unauthorized workers to enter the United States to work and maintain documentation to claim their earnings under a false identity."
Kirkorian believes those would be the unintended consequences of the president's proposed "guest worker" program.
"If the president gets his way and [those illegal aliens are] legalized, and he submits this totalization agreement to Congress," Kirkorian warned, "then all of the illegal aliens who get this 'amnesty' that he wants, get to count all of their Social Security payments when they were illegal toward their eventual retirement."
Barnhart told the congressional subcommittee that such an outcome could not happen.
"As is the case with our existing agreements, a totalization agreement with Mexico would not alter current law on this issue," Barnhart testified. "Totalization agreements do not have any effect on the prohibition against payment of benefits to illegal aliens in the United States."
But if Congress approves the president's "guest worker" plan, the "adjusted" status of previously illegal employees would mean that they would no longer be excluded from eligibility for Social Security payments.
"What they want is for illegal aliens who 'adjust' to some kind of legal status to be able to count their illegal work toward Social Security," Kirkorian said. "That's not up for contention, that's just a fact. The Social Security Administration negotiated the agreement, already, with Mexico."
A March 2003 report by the Social Security Administration's Office of the Inspector General (SSA-OIG) validates Kirkorian's concern.
"SSA's practice allows non-citizens to work illegally in the U.S. economy for a number of years, eventually acquire a valid SSN and have these earnings posted to their valid SSNs, and then receive [Social Security] benefits as a result of those earnings," the inspector general reported. "SSA does not consider the work-authorization status of the individual when they earned the wages; it only considers whether the individual can prove he or she paid Federal Insurance Contribution Act (FICA) taxes as part of this work."
Data from the 2000 Census indicate that 9.1 million Mexican citizens are living in the United States, 4.8 million of them illegally. The SSA-OIG report speculated about the impact that those illegal aliens could have if they became eligible for U.S. Social Security benefits.
"If these Mexican non-citizens are also working in the United States illegally, and an amnesty and/or totalization agreement occurs," the report warned, "SSA potentially may need to reinstate a large volume of [Social Security taxes paid under false or fraudulent account numbers] based on earlier unauthorized work."
Marti Dinerstein, president of Immigration Matters, also criticized the SSA in a September 2004 report entitled "Social Security 'Totalization' - Examining a Lopsided Agreement with Mexico," for using Canada as the model for its Mexican totalization cost estimates.
"The estimated number of Canadians living in the United States is 820,000," Dinerstein wrote. "Given the fact that a totalization agreement would cover not just Mexican workers but also their spouses and dependents, it is highly likely that over time, potentially millions of people would receive U.S. Social Security benefits and the cost would be in the billions of dollars."
"It's pretty ludicrous, frankly," Kirkorian concluded. "Mexico is just not the kind of country that you should be having this kind of agreement with."
The White House did not return calls seeking comment for this article.
Having said that, let me also say that I have used that same FR polling data to prove a point.
If you look at the question, "Do you approve of the President's Guestworker Plan?", you see that 42 percent say a guest worker plan won't work. OTOH, the other three responses totalling 46.8 percent say that they approve of one guest worker plan or the other.
Based on this polling data we can say that Free Republic supports a guestworker plan.
The way you post, it's obvious there's no sense in wasting time attempting to educate you, as I know others have, numerous times. Your posts continue to show you are a quisling.
Posted on 12/08/2005 8:01:06 AM CST by AliVeritas
Law enforcement officials yesterday announced the dismantling of a major fake identity-document ring - exposed in The New York Sun on Monday. But hours after the press conference, dealers were back selling fake green cards and driver's licenses on the same Queens avenue that had been targeted in the bust.
A 19-month undercover investigation by federal and local officials concluded this week with the seizure of more than 5,000 forged documents and the indictment of 21 individuals. Among those arrested was the dealer who last week sold this reporter a fake green card signifying permanent resident status.
The Queens district attorney, Richard Brown, pronounced the $1 million a year ring - which sold green cards, driver's licenses, and Social Security cards - out of business. "I think it's fair to say this particular operation, this enterprise, is effectively closed down," he said at a press conference yesterday.
Sure it is pal. Keep saying it enough and even you might believe it. In the meantime this noation is falling flat on it's face because of kissing bu++ of illegal aliens.
Quite frankly (for all you RNC lurkers reading this) the American Citizens have had a belly FULL of this Kr@p. Come the 2008 elections there are gonna be a LOT of ticked off American Citizens walking into those voting booths...
Keep giving away our future, just keep right on doing that, see what happens come the elections.
Oh, so you're used to being called a quisling by now?
Probably as much as the french are used to being called appeasors.
Some folks just are never willing to do the right thing.
Not true and you know it. You can twist the facts any way you want, it won't change the reality, will it? There were times when you came close to being honest about this issue, but I see that is not the case. You care nothing about your fellow Americans.
I could drag polls from all sources and it won't change your propaganda. You are a lost cause, but the rest of us don't want to be dragged down in your gutter.
----
Wake up, or start speaking Mexican, but maybe you already do.
Um I think you confused my post with some OBL type, trying to pass his Presidente Bush has done so much to stop illegals garbage on those that know better. By the way Mexicans speak Spanish or Spanglish not "Mexican". And yes I do speak Spanish, I live in California and hispanics are in a majority here so Spanish is necessary, thanks to lax/non enforcement of our immigration laws. If Presidente Bush's guest worker program and totalization come to being, it will enable me to retire to Mexico and greatly reduce my current taxpayer contributions to illegals in this country. Our government is out of control and just plain stupid.
Because the people from those other countries have come here legally to work and pay taxes into SS. We are talking about granting illegals the same rights as those of us who have paid into SS and look forward to collecting on our 'investment'. Also, adding millions more to the eligibility rolls of SS will certainly sink it.
Another question: Who gets the benefits if three different people are using someone else's SS#? The original owner, are the benefits split four ways, three ways or are all entitled to full benefits? You can see where lawyer will take this can't you?
Are you the queen of denile?
I think I am missing something? Why can't you do that now? Lots of Americans are retiring in Mexico for the lower costs and they have no trouble getting their social security checks. We don't need a totalization agreement for that.
There are some who say this is why Congress has been tardy in addressing immigration reform. Every SS dollar contributed by the illegals pushes out the date of SS insolvency. If and when Congress passes immigration reform, those illegal dollars disappear.
LOL! Great comment, and dead on.
Probably true. At the same time I have no sympathy for the illegals. It's too bad if they don't get their money.
Most of the illegals won't get a dime out of it, but a few will.
A couple of years ago, the illegal's contribution to Social Security was about $6 billion per year. It is probably somewhat higher now since President Bush has allowed a few more millions to come.
But, the cost of illegal immigration to the taxpayers in California, net of their meager tax contribution, is $10 billion per year. In Texas and Florida it is a net of about $3.5 billion each. In Arizona it is a little over $1 billion. I don't have figures in my head for New York, Massachussets, Illinois, Connecticut, the Carolinas, New Mexico, Nevada, Georgia, Missouri, Colorado, Missisippi and some others that also have huge illegal immigration problems. Illegal immigration is a massive loss for taxpayers.
I think I am missing something? Why can't you do that now? Lots of Americans are retiring in Mexico for the lower costs and they have no trouble getting their social security checks. We don't need a totalization agreement for that.
I am against the totalization agreement it is bad (insanity)for America. I was only trying to show that if those two things came to pass, totalization and guest worker that I may move out of the country and retire early rather than pay more tax dollars to reward illegals. Why should I work hard to support lawbreakers? Our politicians are nuts..now imagine 20 or 30 million other taxpayers who decide to retire or reduce their work load, income, and taxes, who will pay for all these benefits? Its taxation without representation, they are not listening to the people. Being of sound mind, I'll take the legal way out and cut my income rather than end up in jail like tax protesters. I sure as heck am not going to bust my behind to pay benefits for illegals. Why should I contribute more of my tax dollars to social security for illegals? I'm never going to get what I already paid into it anyway why pay more? I'll vote with my feet, since our "leaders" don't respond to my voice.
So they would rather have illegals cutting their fences and letting the cattle cross over to Mexico?
Get it right. The ranchers don't want the hassle of dealing with the cartels for letting the MM's observe from their land. They are scared and I don't blame them!
Most of the illegals won't get a dime out of it, but a few will.
A few huh?
Not in U.S. National Interest
The proposed lopsided Social Security totalization pact is just one more example of the U.S. government ceding bits of sovereignty to Mexico. Mexico seems to have a seat at the table determining U.S. immigration policy alongside the White House and the departments of Homeland Security, Justice, and State. Many of the concessions Mexico has been granted endanger our nation?s security. The proposed totalization agreement with Mexico imperils the future solvency of the U.S. Social Security system and, therefore, the retirement security of America?s seniors.
The number of American workers and employers covered would be miniscule compared to the millions of Mexican workers who might eventually participate. There is no benefit parity for U.S. workers, as it takes more than twice as long to vest for Mexican social security and retirement benefits are far less generous than those offered by the United States. It would result in modest tax savings for America?s workers and their employers while creating huge contingent liabilities for the U.S. Social Security trust fund.
The proposed totalization agreement with Mexico should not be finalized. It represents a sell-out of American workers and their families. Such a one-sided pact with its enormous financial risks should never have been negotiated in the first place.
It is unfortunate that the Commissioner of Social Security signed it despite the serious and specific concerns expressed in the GAO report and again in Congressional hearings in 2003. It would have been far better to pull the plug then rather than extend negotiations with Mexico, which now has every reason to believe the agreement will be accepted. We owe Mexico an apology for leading it on. But embarrassment over a diplomatic blunder should not get in the way of extricating ourselves from an agreement that is not in our national interest.
Learning from this experience, the SSA and other relevant agencies should put forth formal criteria to assess future potential totalization pacts. Among the issues to be addressed would be relative parity concerning the benefits granted to both countries? nationals and a rigorous, documented methodology to estimate future financial liabilities.
Concurrent with that analysis, Congress should finish the work begun last year by passing legislation to prohibit the current practice of permitting foreign nationals who work many years illegally with one or more fraudulently obtained Social Security numbers, obtain legal status, and request that their prior earnings credits be transferred to their new, legitimate SSN.
Last year?s bill was limited because the SSA said they could not administratively handle the more comprehensive approach. That is no doubt correct, but it should not mean that the practice be permitted in perpetuity. Individuals who were never legally permitted to work in the United States should not be able to collect Social Security benefits on the basis of their illegal earnings. As with many of the new mandates for the Department of Homeland Security, the legislation could be passed with a generous timeframe before implementation.
For, if we the people of the United States ignore our own laws, why should the citizens of another nation respect them?
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/back904.html
Did you even read the article? Mark Krekorian explains exactly why a SS totalization agreement with a modern nation, (Germany, France, Japan) is advantageous. While a SS totalization agreement with a 3rd world nation such as Mexico is huge drain on our SS system
I sure that this will make no difference to you and many others here because CIS tells you what you wany to hear.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.