Posted on 12/08/2005 6:54:56 AM PST by jackbenimble
(CNSNews.com) - Illegal aliens who work under borrowed, stolen or fraudulent Social Security numbers could collect retirement benefits based on their illegal earnings as the result of a Bush administration plan. Critics charge the federal government has grossly underestimated the cost of the proposal, which they believe could run be billions of dollars per year.
Congress is expected to vote on some combination of proposed changes to immigration laws as early as next week, according to sources working with the House Homeland Security and Judiciary committees. While members have not been able to reach agreement on the details of a temporary or "guest worker" program advocated by President Bush, the White House might use the legislative opportunity to seek approval for an International Social Security Agreement with Mexico, something it has wanted for more than two years.
Mark Kirkorian, executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies, told Cybercast News Service that the arrangements, usually called "totalization agreements," with industrialized countries like Canada, the United Kingdom and even France are beneficial. But those benefits, he argued, would not come from an agreement with Mexico.
"The point to a totalization agreement is for two advanced countries that occasionally send corporate transferees from one country to the next for a two or three year stint to be able to reconcile their respective retirement systems," Kirkorian said. "It's not for a third world country that sends millions of peasants into a developed country to take advantage of; there's a complete mismatch, an imbalance."
Kirkorian points out a number of differences between the U.S. and Mexican Social Security systems including:
Workers are vested in the U.S. system in 10 years versus 24 years in Mexico;
The U.S. pays greater benefits to lower income workers whereas Mexico pays out only the premiums paid in, plus accrued interest; and
Most Mexican workers avoid their country's Social Security system by working in the "underground economy," while most U.S. workers have Social Security taxes automatically collected from their wages.
The U.S. has entered into totalization agreements with 20 countries since 1978. The Social Security Administration (SSA) describes the arrangements on its website:
"[These] agreements have two main purposes. First, they eliminate dual Social Security taxation -- the situation that occurs when a worker from one country works in another country and is required to pay Social Security taxes to both countries on the same earnings," the SSA site explains. "Second, the agreements help fill gaps in benefit protection for workers who have divided their careers between the United States and another country."
Congress does not have to give approval for the totalization agreements, but lawmakers are given the opportunity to vote them down. SSA Commissioner Jo Anne Barnhart explained the benefits of totalization for U.S. employers and employees during her Sept. 11, 2003 testimony to the House Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Claims.
"Without totalization the combined Social Security tax rate that U.S. employers and employees working in foreign countries must pay often approaches 40 percent or more of total payroll," Barnhart testified.
In March of 2003, the SSA's Office of the Chief Actuary estimated that a totalization agreement with Mexico would cost the U.S. $78 million in the first year, growing to $650 million (in constant 2002 dollars) by 2050. That determination assumed that the initial number of newly eligible Mexican recipients would be equal to the 50,000 beneficiaries then living in Mexico, and that the eligible number would grow to only 300,000 over the next 48 years.
But the agency now known as the Government Accountability Office (GAO) GAO report disputed that estimate.
"[T]his proxy figure does not directly consider the estimated millions of current and former unauthorized workers and family members from Mexico and appears small in comparison with those estimates," the GAO determined. "The estimate also inherently assumes that the behavior of Mexican citizens would not change and does not recognize that an agreement could create an additional incentive for unauthorized workers to enter the United States to work and maintain documentation to claim their earnings under a false identity."
Kirkorian believes those would be the unintended consequences of the president's proposed "guest worker" program.
"If the president gets his way and [those illegal aliens are] legalized, and he submits this totalization agreement to Congress," Kirkorian warned, "then all of the illegal aliens who get this 'amnesty' that he wants, get to count all of their Social Security payments when they were illegal toward their eventual retirement."
Barnhart told the congressional subcommittee that such an outcome could not happen.
"As is the case with our existing agreements, a totalization agreement with Mexico would not alter current law on this issue," Barnhart testified. "Totalization agreements do not have any effect on the prohibition against payment of benefits to illegal aliens in the United States."
But if Congress approves the president's "guest worker" plan, the "adjusted" status of previously illegal employees would mean that they would no longer be excluded from eligibility for Social Security payments.
"What they want is for illegal aliens who 'adjust' to some kind of legal status to be able to count their illegal work toward Social Security," Kirkorian said. "That's not up for contention, that's just a fact. The Social Security Administration negotiated the agreement, already, with Mexico."
A March 2003 report by the Social Security Administration's Office of the Inspector General (SSA-OIG) validates Kirkorian's concern.
"SSA's practice allows non-citizens to work illegally in the U.S. economy for a number of years, eventually acquire a valid SSN and have these earnings posted to their valid SSNs, and then receive [Social Security] benefits as a result of those earnings," the inspector general reported. "SSA does not consider the work-authorization status of the individual when they earned the wages; it only considers whether the individual can prove he or she paid Federal Insurance Contribution Act (FICA) taxes as part of this work."
Data from the 2000 Census indicate that 9.1 million Mexican citizens are living in the United States, 4.8 million of them illegally. The SSA-OIG report speculated about the impact that those illegal aliens could have if they became eligible for U.S. Social Security benefits.
"If these Mexican non-citizens are also working in the United States illegally, and an amnesty and/or totalization agreement occurs," the report warned, "SSA potentially may need to reinstate a large volume of [Social Security taxes paid under false or fraudulent account numbers] based on earlier unauthorized work."
Marti Dinerstein, president of Immigration Matters, also criticized the SSA in a September 2004 report entitled "Social Security 'Totalization' - Examining a Lopsided Agreement with Mexico," for using Canada as the model for its Mexican totalization cost estimates.
"The estimated number of Canadians living in the United States is 820,000," Dinerstein wrote. "Given the fact that a totalization agreement would cover not just Mexican workers but also their spouses and dependents, it is highly likely that over time, potentially millions of people would receive U.S. Social Security benefits and the cost would be in the billions of dollars."
"It's pretty ludicrous, frankly," Kirkorian concluded. "Mexico is just not the kind of country that you should be having this kind of agreement with."
The White House did not return calls seeking comment for this article.
Meanwhile, Congress has credible facts from credible sources that are entirely different from yours.
Faced with this dilemma, your only explanation is that these Congressmen creating legislation, the Prez creating policy, or a local Police Chief not wanting enforce immigration law are all hell bent on destroying the Nation.
And it not just one issue. The same kooky theories pop up whether the subject totalization, immigration reform, foreign aid policies, Trade policies, etc, etc.
You need to get out and around more.
You and Bush both need to be deported and your citizenship revoked if you are one.
When I see Bush issue an executive order to cease all welfare style benefits to illegals thus saving taxpayers tens of billions then I'll know he's serious. If they aren't receiving the welfare $ they'll slowly deport themselves and until then everything else is just window dressing for a gullible public.
Sheesh. Didn't read that way.
Me along with about 75% of the American people and about 90% of Republicans. I suppose we are all blind and none of us get around.
What specific fact of mine are you saying is not credible? In this thread I have posted several facts. Are you disputing that millions of Mexican are working here illegally? That millions of illegal Mexicans have been given amnesty over the last 20 years? That not one of the other 20 countries with which we have totalization agreements have a million illegal workers in America? That President Bush was against all but a meager expansion of the Border Patrol? That he worked to get the REAL ID provisions stripped out of the 911 Security and Intelligence Bill? That Robert Byrd pushed through most of the recent expansion of the Border Patrol and Detention Beds? I have cited lots of facts and I believe they are for the most part fairly reliable.
In contrast, almost every one of your posts in this thread has been ridiculous drivel.
More facts without cedibility from sources without credibility.
I would like to see Bush enforce employer sanctions more, train more BP agents, continue constructing vehicle barriers ans fences where possible, and then start talking about a TEMPORARY guestworker program. As long as it is truly temporary, and enforced, I will support it. But God forbid they push through a McKennedy style amnesty plan, the GOP will put themselves out of power for a long time to come.
Loony.
Anybody supporting this idea needs to be driven from office, either by election or impeachment. My support for Bush is getting thinner every day. He is simply wrong and this issue and refuses to listen.
you are, indeed, a quisling.
Here is a good compilation of poll results: NumbersUSA Public Opinion. My numbers are in the ballpark.
I'm sure you consider NumbersUSA an "unreliable source" but keep in mind they did not conduct these polls; they just published links to them.
I'd be very curious to see a Free Republic Poll on how freepers would feel about giving illegal aliens benefits in our Social Security System based on their fraudulent use of a social security number. I feel fairly confident that the results would be consistent with the numbers I cited in my previous post.
Unless you care to post something that shows anything resembling strong support for giving Social Security Benefits to illegals based on payments they made while illegal and making fraudulent use of a social security number, I don't see much point in continuing this discussion.
I win, you lose.
You rely on uncredible sources such as Numbers USA for your uncredible facts.
jackbenible said: I'd be very curious to see a Free Republic Poll on how freepers would feel about giving illegal aliens benefits in our Social Security System based on their fraudulent use of a social security number. I feel fairly confident that the results would be consistent with the numbers I cited in my previous post.
Here ya go!
Polls Free Republic
Do you approve of the plan to let some of the eight million illegal aliens in the United States move toward legal status without penalty -- but with social security benefits?
No 85.9% 1,562
Yes 8.7% 159
Undecided 5.4% 98
100.0% 1,819
_________________
The Constitution says in Article I, Section 8, "The Congress shall have the power.... To provide for the calling forth the Militia to execute the laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and Repel Invasions;..." Since we are being invaded and the laws of the Union are being violated should the Militia be called up and placed on the borders to protect the laws and the American people?
Yes 83.8% 5,670
_____
Do you approve of the president's guest worker plan?
Definitely not. A guest worker program will not work. 42.3% 1,573
Yes, but illegal aliens must go home first and apply for entry. 27.8% 1,035
Maybe, but it needs a lot of work. 17.1% 636
Yes, will be fine as is or with minor changes. 7.9% 295
__________
Please indicate whether or not you support or oppose open borders and illegal immigration.
I OPPOSE open borders and illegal immigration. 90.0% 5,121
I SUPPORT open borders and illegal immigration. 3.3% 188
Undecided/Pass. 2.5% 143
________________
http://www.freerepublic.com/perl/poll
No, RINO and quisling are obloquy alike.
RINO's at least are largely transparent. Illegal alien quislings, however, sneak around pretending to be conservative, mouthing conservative arguments, but whose motivations ultimately are revealed as nothing more than wanting to profit from cheap labor, the country be damned.
If you haven't already gotten them, expect posters to tell you that legalizing these people will help bolster SS because they will now be paying taxes. All the while forgetting that these same low-wage, unskilled workers will some day be eligible for SS.
There was a time when I would have argued with you - no longer. I suspect you're right.
bumperooo
I haven't seen one of those yet on this thread but I have seen that foolish idea before. They also forget that Social Security has a built in socialist wealth transfer mechanism. It is a very bad deal for high wage earners who, at best, get their money returned to them at a very low rate of return. It is a very good deal for low wage earners (the category where most illegals would fall) because they eventually withdraw substantially more benefits then they every paid in.
Wake up, America!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.