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To: aNYCguy

So what if I missed the exact wording? Thing do NOT decrease in entropy over time naturally. No explosion has ever produced a laptop computer. No tornado has ever assembled a Rolls Royce. And no random combination of molecules has ever produced life. What is the minimum number of amino acid molecules required to make up the simlest virus? A few thousand? I really have no idea but for the sake of argument lets call it 1000. The number of total possible combinations is 1000! which equates to 4.023872e+2567. Do the math. Even if you could try a trillion, trillion combinations per second, your chances of coming up with a plausable, self replicating, stable virus are mathmatically ZERO even if you considered the universe a billion times older than the current claims.

The fact that you strain on a gnat while swallowing a whale tells me that you are so dedicated to making sure that your personal BELIEFS are impressed on everyone cloud your judgement to the facts that evolution CANNOT and WILL NOT ever be proven. If you had half as much belief in God as you do evolution, we would not be having this discussion.


140 posted on 12/06/2005 7:29:57 PM PST by Blood of Tyrants (G-d is not a Republican. But Satan is definitely a Democrat.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Thing do NOT decrease in entropy over time naturally.

Yes, yes they can so long as there is a net increase in entropy overall. Ranting and raving over this only makes you look stubborn and stupid, it will not change the laws of physics to suit your whim.

You are wrong when you claim that the Second Law of Thermodynamics makes evolution impossible. Deal with it and admit your mistake.
146 posted on 12/06/2005 7:49:06 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
So what if I missed the exact wording?

You didn't just miss the exact wording. There is no official wording of the Second Law. No, you completely misstated it, giving a nonsensical caricature which contradicts the First Law.

Thing do NOT decrease in entropy over time naturally.

Sure they do. A mug of hot water, as it cools, decreases dramatically in entropy. I no longer have much hope that you're willing to learn, but I'll try anyways: The Second Law states only that an isolated system tends to increase in entropy over time. An isolated system is one in which no energy is exchanged with the surroundings. When you put an ice cube into a bowl of water, the water decreases in entropy as it becomes colder, but the entire water-ice system increases in entropy overall, because the melting ice gains entropy greater than that lost by the intially liquid water.

No explosion has ever produced a laptop computer. No tornado has ever assembled a Rolls Royce.

Astute observations. When you can tell me how they relate to evolution or thermodynamics, I'll know how to respond.

This post is getting rather long, so I'll refute your faulty mathematics in another post.
147 posted on 12/06/2005 7:57:15 PM PST by aNYCguy
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Even if you could try a trillion, trillion combinations per second, your chances of coming up with a plausable, self replicating, stable virus are mathmatically ZERO even if you considered the universe a billion times older than the current claims.

You are confusing the complexity of zero-order pattern with the total information it contains. An infinite zero-order pattern can contain trivial complexity in both time and space (small enough to fit on cocktail napkin with a crayon), and it is more than obvious that you are not equipped to make this determination of a virus. We already know that the total complexity of living organisms is unimaginably smaller than their expression.

Your mickey mouse "statistics" don't even take into account the extremely biased phase space of real molecular systems, which represents an astronomical reduction in the improbability of the conformations in question. If you keep throwing up petrol-soaked strawmen, people with a modicum of science and mathematical ability will continue to torch them.

148 posted on 12/06/2005 9:22:07 PM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants
What is the minimum number of amino acid molecules required to make up the simlest virus? A few thousand? I really have no idea but for the sake of argument lets call it 1000. The number of total possible combinations is 1000! which equates to 4.023872e+2567...

Tortoise has already vaporized your strawman version of evolution, but I just wanted to point out that "the number of total possible combinations" is not 1000 factorial.

I'm not going to address your biology, just your math. If we're working with 20 amino acids, and our virus will be made of 1000, the total number of permutations is 20^1000, which is vastly smaller than 1000!.

If you're going to use a combinatorial statistical argument, I'd think it best to know a little about combinatorics.
150 posted on 12/06/2005 9:49:08 PM PST by aNYCguy
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To: Blood of Tyrants
Thing do NOT decrease in entropy over time naturally.

Yes they do. All the time. The 2nd law of thermodynamics places limits on the entropy change of a system depending on the external energy input, it doesn't eliminate the possibility of entropy increasing. If it did, refrigeration (both natural and artificial) wouldn't work.

No explosion has ever produced a laptop computer. No tornado has ever assembled a Rolls Royce. And no random combination of molecules has ever produced life. What is the minimum number of amino acid molecules required to make up the simplest virus? A few thousand? I really have no idea but for the sake of argument lets call it 1000. The number of total possible combinations is 1000! which equates to 4.023872e+2567.

These comparisons don't make any sense. Viruses weren't assembled by random collisions of molecules any more than a newborn baby is assembled by the random collision of molecules. For one thing, peptides with as few as 32 amino acids have been observed to self-replicate in the right environment. Second, your rudimentary calculation ignores the possibility of any very simple selection mechanisms at the most basic level.

An analogy -- if you flip a row of 100 coins repeatedly, it will take you somewhere around 1029 attempts to land all heads or all tails. You wouldn't get it done in a billion billion years. Implement the strongest selection method possible (only re-flipping tails), and you'll probably have all heads in less than 10 flips. Implement a weaker selection mechanism (like only keeping heads when they appear next to other heads), and you'll get something in between these extremes. The chemical behavior of complex organic compounds implements selection mechanisms, many of which we are only beginning to understand, and unless one has specific knowledge of how those selection mechanisms work, it is impossible to generate even a remotely accurate evaluation of the probability that self-reproducing systems (i.e. the precursors of life) could generate of their own accord.

151 posted on 12/06/2005 10:11:04 PM PST by Quark2005 (No time to play. One post per day.)
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To: Blood of Tyrants

The fact that you strain on a gnat while swallowing a whale tells me that you are so dedicated to making sure that your personal BELIEFS are impressed on everyone cloud your judgement to the facts that evolution CANNOT and WILL NOT ever be proven. If you had half as much belief in God as you do evolution, we would not be having this discussion.



And the proof behind ID? The bible says so? Sorry, that's not proof, that's an easy answer to a hard question, something religion has been trying to do since it's inception.


214 posted on 12/07/2005 1:13:45 PM PST by BritExPatInFla
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