Posted on 12/04/2005 4:18:42 PM PST by wjersey
PHILADELPHIA-December 4, 2005 - By gradually adding hybrids to this city's vehicle fleet, James Muller knows he's helping to save the environment. What he doesn't know is whether switching to the more expensive "green" vehicles will ever save any taxpayer dollars.
The city just bought 20 new hybrid Ford Escapes to add to the six Toyota Priuses already in its 6,000-vehicle fleet. Muller, Philadelphia's fleet manager, said officials are doing it to improve air quality, but that the upfront costs definitely take a bigger hit on city coffers. "That's what we're finding with the initial cost ... it doesn't wash out," he said. "You're actually paying more money."
It's only been a year or two since many cities across the country started adding hybrids to their fleets, but officials say the initial costs can be tough to bear. And they simply don't know whether, over the long run, the vehicles will end up costing more, the same or less than those fueled by gasoline or diesel.
Officials in Ann Arbor, Mich., decided not to add hybrids to their fleet after determining the costs would outweigh the benefits. Ann Arbor has other types of alternate-fuel vehicles, but found that hybrids just weren't cost-effective, said David Konkle, the city's energy coordinator.
"Economic times have been very tough and we were facing the toughest budget year that I've seen in the 15-plus years that I've been here at the city," Konkle said.
He found that hybrids would cost the city about $8,000 more than other cars it would use and save $300 to $500 a year in gas. "That takes more than the life of the car to make that $8,000 difference up," he said.
Hybrid vehicles get better mileage than their regular gasoline-powered counterparts because the hybrid switches back and forth between an electric motor and a gasoline engine.
In New York, hybrids make sense because the city now requires the purchase of the cleanest vehicle available, said Mark Simon, director of alternative fuel programs.
Simon estimates that the city is spending $3,000 to $6,000 more per hybrid vehicle, and saving $400 to $500 a year in fuel.
"It was not our mandate to save money," he said. "They're expecting us to pay more for a cleaner tailpipe."
In Oregon, Dan Clem has purview over 3,000 vehicles – 123 of them hybrids – as fleet manager for the state's Department of Administration Services.
Whether the state saves money in the long run depends on a number of factors, including how prices change and how well the hybrids hold up, he said.
"If they don't last, then they won't pencil out," Clem said, adding that they appear to be holding up well so far. "It could all go bad if and when the battery packs go bad."
Manufacturers say prices are bound to come down as more are manufactured.
"It costs the city more money to put out recycling bins, but it is the proper thing to do," said Dan Bedore, spokesman for Ford, which makes about 20,000 hybrid Ford Escapes a year. "Eventually, as hybrids become more popular, the price has to come down."
Brian Wynne, president the Electric Drive Transportation Association, said his group is working to try to encourage fleets to go hybrid. While hybrids are a low-risk technology, he said, the price does cause some governments to think hard before buying them.
"Yes, there is a premium associated with buying a hybrid vehicle at this point," said Wynne, whose group's members include vehicle and equipment manufacturers, energy suppliers and others. "I don't think there's hesitancy, I think there's diligence."
He pointed to efforts to bring down the costs, including government incentives and tax credits and increasing the overall production of vehicles and parts.
Bradley Berman, editor of hybridcars.com, a consumer-information site, said fleet managers need to look at how much they typically drive a vehicle and how long they keep it.
"Obviously, the more you drive the more you save and the more compelling the financial equation is," Berman said. Cities such as Seattle and Pittsburgh have made the move to hybrid buses, a use that some say is perfect for a hybrid because of all the stop-and-go, heavy-duty driving.
Brett Smith, assistant director of manufacturing, engineering and technology for the Center for Automotive Research, in Ann Arbor, said it can take five to seven years to start saving on a car driven 12,000 miles a year.
"Certainly there are governments and communities that will make that commitment," he said.
In Garfield County, Colo., County Manager Ed Green said the fleet's 11 hybrid cars are meant to set an example for the community as a whole. But not all governments are in a position to be able to make that statement.
With the reality of layoffs facing Ann Arbor, Konkle said, the expense of hybrids was pretty much out of the question this year.
"Is this year a good year to demonstrate our greenness by buying a hybrid vehicle?" he said. "And the answer was, 'no."'
(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie.Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")
LOL! Payback for a prius begins at like 130,000 miles or so, so I hope they really love them.
(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie.Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")
Toyota Prius,
$24K,
1.5 liter four-banger
drum brakes on the rear
front wheel drive
yeah, I really want one
Isn't their life expectancy only supposed to be about 100,000 miles or so?
No...he doesn't know that; he thinks that.
How do you weigh the reduction of some pollutants (not necessarily CO2, though, as a similar vehicle without the battery pack may well get better real-world fuel economy), and possibly better fuel economy (see last parenthetic comment) against the additional manufacturing, and eventual disposal, impacts? No one knows the answer to that.
---same type of geniuses that run a separate truck around to pick up "recycle" at a net greater energy expenditure than the savings--
How can he be so sure?
"It was not our mandate to save money," he said. "They're expecting us to pay more for a cleaner tailpipe."
yah, right....................
6,000-vehicle fleet
One city car for each 245 residents ?
Does that include police/fire cars and trucks?
(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie.Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")
Vehicles using ethanol are actually causing much more damage to the environment than gas powered vehicles.
Thousands of acres of forest land are being destroyed in order to plant corn for the ethanol.
Just great!
AAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGHHHHH!
It cost's more money, because it is ecologically unsound.
It creates pollution.
(Nevermind, I have screamed myself hoarse - envirowhacko's don't care to hear their dopey cult religion challanged, no matter how stupid the scientific premises.)
You're quite correct. This stuff is really about the eco-religion practiced by the envirokooks, and forced on everyone else by government fiat.
Only government, which has a bottom-less pit of money upon which to draw, could affort a fleet of hybrids. If I can spend your money, I'll buy hybrids; with my money, I'll buy a conventional car.
I like to watch.
(The last scene in "Being There" is really quite telling, isn't it?)
Pardon me while I go blubber in the corner.
I agree that "payback" would take a while for a Prius. I got one a year ago because I thought they are cool technologically. I haven't been disappointed from that perspective. My favorite feature of the car is the smart key system, which really has nothing to do with hybrid technology, but is very cool. I never have to take the key from my pocket to either unlock the doors or to start he car. The car knows when the key is nearby. I like the touchscreen controls for the stereo and climate control also. I do like getting 49 mpg vs. the 24 in my Passat. It is roomier than other high mpg cars-- as big inside as he Passat. I was surprised at the pep it has. Not like my turbo Passat, but enough for this 48 year old guy. It isn't for everyone, but I do really like it, despite the ridicule from my conservative colleagues-- I am a conservative too. I just like gadgets.
Take the financial mistakes out of the parasites' paychecks - maybe then they'll do a better cost-benefit analysis next time.
Call me a tree hugger, but I just decided to get a new Ford Escape and I'm getting 35.43 mpg on my first tankful. My previous 2003 model Escape got about 21 mpg. I'm not a fan of the Prius because I think it is butt ugly. But I knew exactly what I was getting with the Escape and I didn't give my any drivability so I view it as a win-win situation. And it seems to have even more power than my old Escape. What I especially like is not having to dread the cost of gas going up as it did recently. Now I go into a gas station and may squeeze in 4 or 5 gallons. And the cost doesn't require a second mortgage.
Like it or not, the hybrid concept actually does work and work well. All manufacturers will have to have them or they will be out of the auto business. See the latest issue of Car and Driver for a very good discussion of this subject. Diesels won't work because they won't pass the new EPA standards.
And those new solar panels they are coming out for homes are also something to consider. If one lives in a sunny area your meter will run backwards!! Looked both attractive and practical. Take a vacation and earn money!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.