Posted on 12/03/2005 11:41:20 PM PST by WKB
THE Devil's work is far from done. More than a third of Scotland's clergy still believe in the literal existence of Hell as a place, according to a new survey.
Hell has not got any less hellish over the centuries either. The ministers, from a wide range of denominations, are convinced that lost souls will still suffer eternal mental anguish after death.
Hardliners hold out the prospect of eternal physical punishment as an added part of the package for the condemned. Judgment Day, whether it ends in being sent to Hell or not, is also a strong belief, the survey found, with more than half of Scottish ministers in no doubt that humanity is divided into the saved and the damned after they depart the ranks of the mortal.
Your personal chances of being sent to either Heaven or Hell, however, could depend on where you live. Ministers who believe in an eternal mental and physical torment are much thicker on the ground in the Highlands and Islands and on the west coast of the mainland.
Far fewer ministers in the east and south of Scotland are convinced that their parishioners will suffer a fiery fate being lashed by Satanic demons.
The survey, 'Hell in Scotland: A Survey of Where the Nation's Clergy Think Some Might Be Heading', was conducted by Dr Eric Stoddart, a lecturer in practical theology at St Andrews University.
The divinity scholar canvassed the views of 750 clergy from the Church of Scotland, Roman Catholic, Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist and Scottish Episcopalian churches, as well as other Presbyterians and the Salvation Army, to find out what constituted a modern Hell.
Stoddart said: "The fire and brimstone may largely have been extinguished but the beliefs that many Scottish clergy hold concerning the potential horrors that await "the lost" continue to be dark and forbidding. All will not be well, if the majority of Scotland's clergy are to be believed."
Throughout the history of many religions, the concept of a fiery Hell has been used to frighten populations away from sinning. The reward for a morally good life - and those who repented before death - was a place in Heaven alongside your God, while those who sinned without remorse were destined to descend into the Devils's domain.
The concept of Hell as a literal place has declined in an increasingly secular world. But what surprised Stoddart is that "there is a solid number of Scottish ministers who still believe in eternal torment.
"There are those who maintain that Hell is something that should have gone away with the thinking that the Earth was flat, but it clearly hasn't," he said.
"I can understand that after death there might be some who think there are others who won't get into Heaven. They just won't exist. But for others to think there is really mental and physical torment came as a shock to me."
Belief in Hell appears to follow strict geographical boundaries. According to the survey, 37% of ministers in the Highlands, Western Isles, Orkney and Shetland are convinced the "lost" will go to Hell, with Strathclyde not far behind with 33%. This compares with 15% in the Lothians and Central regions, 9% in Grampian, Tayside and Fife, and just 6% in Dumfries and Galloway and the Borders.
"You are going to get more Hell belief in the Western Isles because of the strong presence of Presbyterian groups like the Free Church of Scotland," Stoddart said.
"Also, the west coast has a stronger Catholic presence as well as more conservative Baptist and other Protestant groups. By contrast, the east coast appears to be less Hell-fearing than the west."
Social commentators said the continuing strength of the literal belief among ministers in modern Scotland reflected the rise of religious fundamentalism across the world.
Rev Professor George Newlands, head of the Kirk's School of Divinity in Glasgow, said: "It is no surprise that there remains such a strong belief in Hell, because all over the world, religions are tending to become more fundamentalist and moving towards a kind of literalism. On many religious issues, there is a more literal interpretation of scriptures in the west than in the east, which corresponds to the north-south divide in the US."
Historian Michael Fry said the remaining fundamentalist areas which still believe in Heaven and Hell were a useful mirror image for the rest of modern, materialist Scotland. "It will not alter the fact, however, that most people will make their own moral choices."
A spokesman for the Catholic Church, which last week announced it was to scrap Limbo, the state between Heaven and Hell into which unbaptised babies were dispatched, said: "The Catholic Church affirms the existence of Hell, understood as eternal separation from God. However, the Church has never formally defined who, if anyone, is in Hell."
Stoddart, a former Baptist minister, says he no longer believes in Hell in the sense of a future destination. "But there is still a lot of value in talking about Hell because it allows us to say no to things in a moral sense. It's a way of making a judgment on what is right or wrong."
hell is too good for these pervs. im for stoning em all to death. the people who you are supposed to be able to trust in betray children like this??? and the church tries to hide it. they find out and send those men to other parishes . and they call themselves men of GOD??? hmmmm more like men of satan!!!
You can't "cherry pick" the verses that fit your idea of what you wish God is like. That is where cults come from. The Bible says what it says, God wrote it, God never changes, ergo the Bible is a true today as it has been for thousands of years. Do you worship the God that created the universe in 6 days, or the one that took billions of years? Do you think we used to be apes? Do you believe in the God that flooded the entire world because it was evil, or the one that said it was an allegory? How about Sodom & Gomorrah? I worship and believe the God of the Bible. If you can't believe what the Bible says, then what god do you believe?
Thank you for the ping! Great posts.
Why does the book of Job find him walking up and down in the earth, and why does the New Testament call him the god of this world?
Your are making reference to Job 1:6-7
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them. And the LORD said to Satan, From where do you come? So Satan answered the LORD and said, From going to and fro on the earth, and from walking back and forth on it.The Prophecy of Isaiah also includes the account of Lucifer the Fallen:
14:12 How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! 13 For you have said in your heart:Lucifer is also Leviathan the 'Twisted' and 'Twister', the account of which is found in Job 41.
I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High. 15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit. 16 Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying:
Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms, 17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?"
Read of him also in Isaiah 27:1 -
In that day the LORD with His severe sword, great and strong,Will punish Leviathan the fleeing serpent, Leviathan that twisted serpent; And He will slay the reptile that is in the sea.
And in Psalm 74:14 -
You broke the heads of Leviathan in pieces,And gave him as food to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
This is he of whom it is written in Genesis 3:14-15:
So the LORD God said to the serpent:
Because you have done this,
[that is, transgressed your charge and appointed place by tempting man to turn against the command of the Lord]
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed
[that is, the Messiah, born of woman];
He [Jesus] shall bruise your head
[that is, crush you utterly under His feet],
And you shall bruise His heel [that is, the crucifixion, what you will think is a killing wound, shall be as a bite to His ankle only].
Read of this conflict between the serpent and the Savior also in Revelation 12:3-5:
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born. She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.
Satan the Deceiver, the Angel who was given the charge of this world as a created and appointed Messenger-Servant ["angels are ministering spirits," Hebrews 1:13-15] of the Almighty, attempted to attain to the place of God Almighty. He caused one third of the angels to join him in this awful rebellion. Only Pride could so blind a creature, and Pride is the fall of the Evil One. As Job 41:34 makes clear, "He is king over all the children of pride, and their proper judgment will be the same as his forever and ever, for God is Just and the Justifier of all the poor in spirit who believe on Him alone for salvation. Through faith in the Only Begotten Son and His Work we become "Children of God," and receive Jesus as our King.
Jesus told the truth in speaking to the most religious persons of that day, for they were full of pride:
"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it."
John 8:44
Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus said to Him, How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mothers womb and be born?
Jesus answered, Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again. The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.
John 3:3-8
Jesus said to all His disciples, in John 16:5-11
But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, Where are You going? But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged."
The Book of Revelation (blessed are those who read it!) relates the future of the Father of Lies and all who love the Lie and not the Truth [Jesus is the Truth]:
Revelation 20:10-14
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works ["The work of God is this, to believe in the One He has Sent (John 6:29)."} Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
Well, I am trying my best to unlearn.
Being born in sin doesn't mean you committed sin when born.
We agree, but did mankind inherit Adam and Eve's greedy nature or not? What does "born in sin" really mean? Here's a thought: The first couple may have known what they were and then lost that knowledge, becoming and believing themselves mere bodily creatures who were going to die.
You can't "cherry pick" the verses that fit your idea of what you wish God is like.
No? Why not? Should I let others "cherry pick" for me based on their idea of what God is like?
If you can't believe what the Bible says, then what god do you believe?
The one who is light. Sometimes he is in the Bible, sometimes not. At this point I prefer to keep an open mind and believe my understanding incomplete, rather than dismiss the Old Testament as a complete fairy tale. (not to say there's no truth in fairy tales.)
Not all who believe are saved. A believer who dwells on damnation and wishes it for others is surely not saved.
Pray for the salvation of all. Do not wish for the damnation of a few.
Unfortunately for you, God is not an atheist.
Does Wednesday smell good? And before claiming this sentence as nonsense, think of yours.
Karl Marx and Lenin had the same blind spot.. Course Marx and Lenin were a con-artists..
"How do you tell a Socialist:- It's someone who reads Marx and Lenin. And how do you tell an Anti-Socialist someone who understands Marx and Lenin" -Ronald Reagan
Baptism is not a cleansing, it a ceremonial DEATH.. of the "old man".. Baptism is a burial.. and being "born again" IS REAL not ceremonial..
#124.. Masterful work.. 30carbine.. valiant effort..
No, I wasn't, but my parents were given the charge, by the Church, to raise me and inform my conscience in the Fear and Love of God until I was. When I was older, I was confirmed, and received the power of the Holy Spirit so that I could make the choices that KEPT me in that Love. You may not consider it 'Biblical', but it makes perfect sense to me.
Then there is something wrong with other 2...
My feeling is this...God gives us all free will but He also knows a priori how we will exercise it. If there is a hell (which I was taught is the absence of both God and hope) then why would God create souls that He knows will behave in such a manner as to be condemned?
Indeed. Great Reagan quote, too! Thanks for the ping!
See post 134. More info. Aloha
I don't think it's the "same" blind spot, but I see your spot and raise you one:-). Every good lie perverts the truth. Marx and Lenin were liars.
My paradise isn't in this world.
In Matthew Jesus describes the path the heaven as narrow and that few shall find it. A plain reading of that tells me most are damned. Assuming one is saved, how could one be happy in heaven, knowing loved ones are suffering eternal torment?
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