Posted on 11/29/2005 3:42:52 PM PST by Claud
Augustine was wrong about many things. This is one.
The Augustinian notion was to riddle everything with the angst and guilt that he felt over his past sins. Thus, he could envision a God who would put an infant who had not actually committed any sin into a corner of hell, and to have them endure a "light punishment."
Rather, it is much more realistic to envision God as the Hound of Heaven, as in the Francis Thompson poem, who pursues every soul and gives that soul every option to choose Him. That would include infants, albeit in a way about which we can only speculate.
But we should always speculate in God's favor, since He's shown us that He will always work to save us.
Logical enough.
Now it's time to go back to return to foolish uninformed opinions...
I can see why you were so upset...after years of being taught and believing in a particular religion, its hard to question those beliefs...
I am glad that both and your baby were ok, as swallowing amniotic fluid, can sometimes be life threatening...thankfully for you, and for your sweet baby son, all ended well...I am so glad that it did...
I think you're missing some essentials here and looking at it the stark pseudo-Western/Protestant way.
Reformulate it as follows. One *cannot* attain heaven without supernatural grace. Original sin or not, we must become "above our nature" to live in heaven. Now, if someone commits no sin worth punishment in hell, and yet does not have supernatural life, then where do they go?
With all due respect to John Chrysostom, that is something about which he could not have had any personal or supernatural knowledge.
Almost certainly, yes.
Well said. :)
You don't have the story straight. The limbo of the infants has been a theological speculation for seven centuries. It has never been regarded as a dogmatic teaching of the Church.
SO, yOU THINK YOU KNOW BETTER THAN gOD? IT IS ONLY BY THEGgRACE OF gOD THAT ANYONE GOES TO HEAVEN! SCRIPTURE IS SAYS WE ARE ALL DEAD IN OUR SINS AND DESERVE ETERNAL DAMNATION. EVEN NEWBORN BABIES ARE BORN WITH THE SIN NATURE.
BEFORE TWINS WERE BORN, GOD SAID jACOB HAVE I LOVED AND EASU HAVE I HATED. SO WAS GOD WRONG TO LOVE ONE AND HATE THE OTHER EVEN WHILE THEY WERE UNBORN?
I hope someone will look into the Pearly Gates accepting EZ-Pass, 'cause it's gonna get crowded getting through with all those infants bypassing limbo.
The Holy Spirit is the One that reveals truth to us, THROUGH the Word of God.Perhaps the current Pope is more open to the Spirit?? Being a non Catholic I don't know. I do know that many of my Catholic brothers and sisters know the Word of God and many of my protestant brothers and sister lack the knowledge.And vice versa~~ God NEVER changes.....for that I am glad!!
" believe in it or not believe in it as they saw fit."
What??? I'm at a loss for words here.
Who knows where or what Limbo is?
It's a way of understanding the fate of the virtuous or the innocent unbaptized. Dante's "virtuous pagans" went there. It's a way of dealing with people who hadn't or haven't heard the Christian message and been baptized, but at the same time have been innocent because they died very young or have been virtuous because they discerned the grains of truth in what they knew at the time.
If you don't have this concept, you end up believing that people's dogs go to Heaven (which they don't), or simply that everybody and everything goes directly to the Divine Vision. This doesn't happen - we don't know how right now, and in a sense it's not important because it's up to God, and we can trust in Him. But for those of us living our lives in time, after the Incarnation, and when the truth has been revealed, it is important.
Personally, I suspect that as Christians, we are responsible for the salvation of the world. Who knows how many people and even animals you may bring with you into eternity from your experience in time? But this is up to God to decide, and the Church simply provides answers - in Her own limited way, which even She acknowledges - to troubling questions. The full understanding will be revealed to us in Heaven, when God is All in All.
The only God I believe in does not grant to men the capability of cleansing an infant of "original sin" by baptism. I consider the whole idea to be imbecilic in the extreme. How can an adult with a brain believe this garbage?
Hell has been a place of punishment since the Crucifixion freed Moses, the prophets and the faithful Jews.
That pagans believe in limbo does not help your argument. Augustine, in a moment of lucidity, said "Our souls are made for God, and they are restless until they rest in Him."
Our souls are made for God, and He wants them. It seems odd that He would place souls that had never committed any actual sins into some happy penalty box.
Since nobody knows, you are free to believe whatever you want. I would caution, however, attempting to explain your theory to a woman who has just lost a child who was not baptized.
It won't be comforting.
Forgive me, but I'm a devoted reader of Augustine and I have never encountered this sterotyped vision of his theology--and by and large I think it is nonsense. Regarding Limbo, yes, he was the most severe on the subject of unbaptized babies, and departed somewhat from the Greek Fathers--which Aquinas helped correct.
But IMHO, the Greek Fathers make an even stronger case for Limbo because they deny that the unbaptized child would suffer anything at all.
Most direct reference to a functional Purgatory is the parable of the unmerciful debtor. Initially, he is condemned to slavery with his family. That is eternal damnation to hell (his family is damned because it was lead to sin by the principal debtor). He repents, asks for mercy and is given mercy. That is a state of grace. Next, he fails in his obligation of charity to others. Note that albeit uncharitable he is within rights with the fellow servant, who indeed owes him the money. Perhaps for that reason, or because of the boundlessness of the Divine mercy, his final punishment is finite -- limited to the repayment of the debt and followed by freedom, the parabolic heaven. His family is inaffected this time. The method of repayment, torture, relates to purification rather than to work. This, as well as the implication that the debtor is jailed, suggests deprivation of free will, that is, death. What we have is functional purgatory.
As a Mormon, we teach that all children are saved in Christ before they reach the age of accountability. Once they are able to knowingly commit sin, then children must be baptize.
-A8
The problem is that Jesus confirms the necessity of baptism.
John 3:5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.