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To: mtbopfuyn

Who knows where or what Limbo is?

It's a way of understanding the fate of the virtuous or the innocent unbaptized. Dante's "virtuous pagans" went there. It's a way of dealing with people who hadn't or haven't heard the Christian message and been baptized, but at the same time have been innocent because they died very young or have been virtuous because they discerned the grains of truth in what they knew at the time.

If you don't have this concept, you end up believing that people's dogs go to Heaven (which they don't), or simply that everybody and everything goes directly to the Divine Vision. This doesn't happen - we don't know how right now, and in a sense it's not important because it's up to God, and we can trust in Him. But for those of us living our lives in time, after the Incarnation, and when the truth has been revealed, it is important.

Personally, I suspect that as Christians, we are responsible for the salvation of the world. Who knows how many people and even animals you may bring with you into eternity from your experience in time? But this is up to God to decide, and the Church simply provides answers - in Her own limited way, which even She acknowledges - to troubling questions. The full understanding will be revealed to us in Heaven, when God is All in All.


133 posted on 11/29/2005 5:01:38 PM PST by livius
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To: livius
Personally, I suspect that as Christians, we are responsible for the salvation of the world. Who knows how many people and even animals you may bring with you into eternity from your experience in time?

This is exactly the way that Christians should view our responsibility: that we are to be Christ to the world, which is why we have to constantly be saying "yes" to Him and to our place in His Plan.

Beautifully said, livius.

141 posted on 11/29/2005 5:09:22 PM PST by sinkspur (Trust, but vilify.)
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To: livius
If you don't have this concept, you end up believing that people's dogs go to Heaven (which they don't),

WHOA, now. Don't go touching that subject because it's just YOUR opinion. Here's where you're misinformed.



The following are excerpts from Will I See Fido in Heaven?

Animals Do Have a Soul
In the Old Testament, the soul means "living being." The soul is the living being of a person or an animal. The soul is the psyche, the mind, the emotions, the self-image -- the psychological being apart from the spiritual being.

The King James Authorized Version, revised and edited by W.C. Sanderson, indicates in a footnote that "soul" or "living being" are alternative translations for "life." The soul perceives, thinks, feels, and makes decisions and choices. In man, the soul can also cause sin. God gave man the choice to choose sin or righteousness, to worship himself or God.

The lesser animals were not given this choice. God put them under the protection and dominion of man.

Animals Do Have a Spirit
The word "spirit" (ruach in Hebrew) means "wind, breath -- the living power of God's will at work." The spirit is the essence and will of God given to all humans and animals.

"I decided that God is testing us, to show us that we are no better than animals. After all, the same fate awaits man and animals alike. One dies just like the other. They are the same kind of creature. A human being is no better off than an animal, because life has no meaning for either. They are both going to the same place - the dust. They both came from it; they will both go back to it. How can anyone be sure that a man's spirit goes upward while an animal's spirit goes down into the ground?" (Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 TEV)

God has dominion over both his lesser creatures and man. All souls belong to Him and God can do with all His creatures whatever He chooses. The Book of Job says:

"Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this? In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind." (Job 12:9-10 KJV) (I know, I'm a Roman Catholic and I'm quoting from a book that uses the KJV. Well, get over it. I'm still a Roman Catholic and God is still God. And, she quotes from the Douay-Rheims below.)

Animals Are Innocent
The Scriptures say that animals are not of themselves sinners, but are subject to the results of sin -- not of their own accord, but because of man's sins.

God subjected animals to death just as He did man. However, in doing so, He also gave them hope for the future. Paul wrote in the Book of Romans:

"Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now." (Romans 8:21-22 KJV)

Animals Share in the Covenant with Noah
Sin continued and the condition of the earth worsened...God decided to destroy the world with a flood. However, He found one man named Noah who, along with his family, was righteous before Him. God decided to save Noah and his family and at least one pair of each kind of animal.

Genesis 9:8-16 gives us seven accounts of God's covenant with both man and animals concerning our survival on planet Earth as long as the earth remains. It says, in part, in the original DOUAY-RHEIMS version:

"...Thus also said God to Noe (Noah), and to his sons with him, behold, I establish my covenant with you and with your seed after you;

And with every living soul that is with you, as well in all birds as in cattle and beasts of the earth, that are come forth out of the ark, I will establish my covenant with you, and all flesh shall be no more destroyed with the waters of a flood,

And God said: This is the sign of the covenant which I give between me and you, and to every living soul that is with you, for perpetual generations.

And I will remember my covenant with you, and with every living soul that beareth flesh: and there shall no more be waters of a flood to destroy all flesh.

And the bow shall be in the clouds, and I shall see it, and shall remember the everlasting covenant that was made between God and every living soul of all flesh which is upon the earth." (Genesis 9:3-16)

Animals were meant to live forever, just like Man
The Scriptures tell us that animals do have an eternal existence with God, along with the children of God. They have a soul and a spirit, just like we do. Paul's letter to the Ephesians tells us that God works all things (creation) after His will.

"Let everything he has made give praise to him. For he issues his command, and they came into being; he established them forever and forever. His orders will never be revoked." (Psalm 148:5-6 TLB)

Will I See Fido in Heaven?
When you realize that life does not end at physical death, the pain of losing a pet is not so bad. "Will I See Fido (My Pet) in Heaven?" will bring peace, great joy, enlightenment, and contentment to all who truly love their pets and hope to see them in Heaven.
253 posted on 11/29/2005 6:59:45 PM PST by HighlyOpinionated (In Memory of Crockett Nicolas, hit and run in the prime of his Cocker Spaniel life, 9/3/05.)
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