Posted on 11/29/2005 12:32:57 PM PST by CedarDave
Arvada woman said 'no' at Federal Center while on public bus
By Karen Abbott, Rocky Mountain News November 29, 2005
Federal prosecutors are reviewing whether to pursue charges against an Arvada woman who refused to show identification to federal police while riding an RTD bus through the Federal Center in Lakewood.
Deborah Davis, 50, was ticketed for two petty offenses Sept. 26 by officers who commonly board the RTD bus as it passes through the Federal Center and ask passengers for identification.
During the Thanksgiving weekend, an activist who has helped publicize other challenges to government ID requirements posted a Web site about the case, which he said had logged more than 1.5 million visitors by lunchtime Monday.
"The petty offense ticket was issued by police on the scene," Colorado U.S. attorney's spokesman Jeff Dorschner said Monday. "The status of the matter is now under review."
A decision on whether the government will pursue the case is expected in a week or two.
Davis said she commuted daily from her home in Arvada to her job at a small business in Lakewood, taking an RTD bus south on Kipling Street each morning from the recreation center in Wheat Ridge, where she left her car. She said the bus always passed through the Federal Center and some people got off there.
Guards at the Federal Center gate always boarded the bus and asked to see all passengers' identification, she said.
She said the guards just looked at the IDs and did not record them or compare them with any lists.
When she refused to show her ID, she said, officers with the Federal Protective Service removed her from the bus, handcuffed her, put her in the back of a patrol car and took her to a federal police station within the Federal Center, where she waited while officers conferred. She was subsequently given two tickets and released.
She said she arrived at work three hours late. She no longer has that job and did not identify her former employer.
The Federal Protective Service in Colorado referred inquiries to Carl Rusnok of Dallas, a spokesman for the U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, which oversees the federal police. Both are part of the U.S. Department of Homeland Security.
Rusnok said the federal officers in Colorado told him the policy of checking the IDs of bus passengers and others entering the Federal Center began shortly after the April 1995 terrorist bombing of a federal building in Oklahoma City.
"It's one of the multiple forms of security," Rusnok said. "The identification is one means of making sure that, whoever comes on base, that you know that they are who they say they are.
"There are a variety of other means that bad people could take to circumvent that, but that's why there are multiple layers of security," he said.
Security 'high priority'
Between 7,000 and 8,000 people work at the Federal Center in Lakewood and between 2,000 and 2,500 people visit it every day, Rusnok said.
"Security to protect the employees and the visitors is a high priority," Rusnok said.
RTD spokesman Scott Reed said federal guards only check IDs of bus passengers when the Federal Center is on "heightened alert," which may not be known to the general public.
"It's periodic," Reed said.
"That is something we don't control," Reed said. "It is Federal Center property, and the federal security controls the ID-checking process. We try to cooperate as best we can and inform the public that this will occur."
Davis is to appear before a magistrate judge in Colorado U.S. District Court on Dec. 9.
"We don't believe the federal government has the legal authority to put Deborah Davis in jail, or even make her pay a fine, just because she declined the government's request for identification," said Mark Silverstein, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Colorado, which has taken up the case.
"She was commuting to her job," Silverstein said. "She wasn't doing anything wrong. She wasn't even suspected of doing anything wrong."
"Passengers aren't required to carry passports or any other identification documents in order to ride to work on a public bus," he said.
Davis also is represented by volunteer attorneys Gail Johnson and Norm Mueller of the Denver law firm Haddon, Morgan, Mueller, Jordan, Mackey & Foreman, P.C. She also has the backing of Bill Scannell, an activist who has helped publicize other challenges to government requirements that people show identification. Scannell created a Web site during the Thanksgiving weekend about Davis' case: papersplease.org/Davis.
"This is just a basic American issue of what our country's all about," Scannell said. "It has nothing really to do with politics, and everything to do with what kind of country we want to live in."
'Rosa Parks'
Some supporters have called Davis "the Rosa Parks of the Patriot Act generation," a reference to the African-American woman who became a civil rights heroine after she refused to give up her seat on a public bus to a white man, Scannell said.
Davis said she showed her ID when a Federal Center guard asked to see it for the first couple of days she rode the RTD bus through the center. But it bothered her.
"It's wrong," she said Monday. "It's not even security. It's just a lesson in compliance - the big guys pushing the little guys around."
For a few subsequent days, she told the guards she wasn't getting off in the Federal Center and didn't have an ID. They let her stay on the bus.
Finally, on a Friday, a guard told Davis she had to have an ID the next time. Davis said she spent part of the weekend studying her rights and e-mailing Scannell.
That Monday, when a guard asked if she had her ID with her, Davis just said, "Yes."
"And he said, 'May I see it?' " she recalled, "and I said no."
The guard told her she had to leave the bus, but she refused. Two officers with the Federal Protective Service were called.
"I boarded the bus and spoke with the individual, Deborah N. Davis . . . asking why she was refusing," wrote the first Federal Protective Service officer in an incident report posted on Scannell's Web site. The officer was not identified.
"She explained she did not have to give up her rights and present identification," the officer wrote. "I informed her she was entering a federal facility and that the regulations for entrance did require her to present identification, before being allowed access."
"She became argumentative and belligerent at this time," the officer wrote.
Eventually, one officer said, "Grab her," and the two officers took hold of her arms and removed her from the bus, Davis said.
Davis has four children, including a 21-year-old son serving in Iraq with the Army and a 28-year-old son who is a Navy veteran. She has five grandchildren.
Stay inside your house and take part in nothing provided by the federal gov't then. You cannot expect to use what they provide and not give anything in return.
You cannot fly on an airplane without following the rules of flying.
You cannot go to public school without following the rules set forth for doing so.
You cannot drive on the roads without being ID'd with a driver license. That is what i find so funny by people like you that pose the argument you do. You already HAVE BEEN id'd when you have your picture taken to be legally licensed to drive.
I also find it funny that you think any rule made for any reason is somehow an invasion and violation of your rights. If you were TRUE to that sentiment you would say the constitution is unsconstitutional!!!!!!
You usurp the word unreasonable to the point that you think it means whatever a person thinks at any given time. That is simply not the case.
Are you really of the oppinion that aircraft cannot set rules? That busses cannot have rules? That malls or highways cannot have rules? Sure seems that you think any rule you do not like is somehow a violation of your rights.
Notice now, this is several posts you have made when you fail to post in this forum in your own words what your alternative solution is.
That silence is deafening.
Sorry you seem think this war against a type of people that fly planes into buildings or walk into a diner full of people eating and detonate themselves is less of an enemy than your own US government. You say that clearly. You compare the US government to HITLER then you compare to the King of England.
you show an ID to get that bank account. Where is your opposition and your outrage? OH WAIT, you didn't even think about that. You ID'd yourself to the government when you got that social security number. Have you renounced it yet? I bet not. You ID yourself when you take that picture for your driver license. Have you shredded it yet? You are on camera when you go into any government building, bank, mall, or grocery store. Are your rights completely flogged?
The point of view you pose does not reflect the reality of the world today and it is very very narrow.
Wanna show me otherwise? Post your alternative as to how law enforcment can seek out information without violating your rights. Instead of mindless endless opposition without solution, lets have what you APPROVE of and go from there.
My bet is you do not have the guts to post such a thing....as you fear your own side turning on you with that very same endless opposition without alternative.
It's that kind of "I don't have anything to hide" approach which will eventually erode all of the Bill of Rights, including unreasonable search and seizure, and the right to keep and bear arms.
What happens when you forget your ID one morning and take that bus? You get pulled off and get ticketed, and lose your job (as the woman in this case did) as a perceived 'no-show'?
Me thinks you wouldn't be so cavalier with that 'well, I have nothing to hide' attitude.
The purpose was to find jews and exterminate them. Sugar coat it all you want to in order to try and hold a line but it falls when common sense is applied.
That falls apart when you mention authoritarianism any way. W will be gone in three years and we still have three branches of co equal government.
Challenge all you want to. Accept when you are turned down. Accept the vote. Accept the rulings. Accept reality.
Reality of today>>>>>>>>>your government is not your primary enemy.
You do not offer your own alternatives because you do not have any. You see the BEST way to oppose something is to show what works BETTER.
You wanna know why W won re election? People know where he stands. He said I will do this and this and this...and he has done so. Kerry did nothing of the kind. Democrats have not done so for a very long time. People are open to opposition when it is qualified with an alternative.
People dismiss you (plural) as a whiner when all you do is say NO NO NO NO NO NO OPPOSE OPPOSE OPPOSE OPPOSE and refuse to offer up any ideas to replace what it is you are so opposed to.
If you have nothing to hide why is it so unreasonable to ask you to show you do not?
"What happens when you forget your ID one morning and take that bus? You get pulled off and get ticketed, and lose your job (as the woman in this case did) as a perceived 'no-show'? "
If you are caught driving here without your license on your person you are issued a ticket. You go to court and show you did in fact have a license on that day and it is dropped. See people do this thing called LIE when they are pulled over, they give a FALSE name.
You make a bit of a stretch when you claim she lost her job because of this. In the article I read it said that she was no longer employed with that small business owner. Where do you make the connection that the reason for that is due to this happening on this day?
ME thinks you ASSUMED exactly as the author wanted you to.
That's what you think.
Karl Rove planned this,
I realize that, it was a mis-statement, what I more meant to say is that whatever their reasons are for doing what they do, they are ALWAYS involved, so it should not be a surprise.
Here is a personal story.
I have been asked (demanded) on my own property to show my ID. Under threat of arrest. Exact words he used were 'do you want to get arrested tonight' He used it several times. I informed the plainclothes cop who pulled up in an unmarked black pickup truck to show me his id first. His buddy walked just behind him with him shining a flashlight in my eyes. I told him he was on my private property and that I wasn't breaking any laws to get arrested. "do you want to get arrested? Show me your ID". I then insisted he get off my property or show me his ID, this pissed him off more. More bluster and threats, not even telling me why he was there. Finally he flashed his id, And I mean a classic flip I couldn't see it. The then asked me for mine. I told him it was in the house and asked him why he was here. He asked me again if I wanted to get arrested. He called for back up, suddenly with in 5 minutes there were 4 cops. I went to my house and returned with my ID, my neighbor waited with the cops with his plastic rake in hand. When I showed my id to him he took it in the truck and wrote me a ticket for an 'illegal burn' which is a 2500 fine and up to 6 months in jail. I had a fire in my stone lined fire pit. I told him it wasn't illegal and I had cleared it with the fire department prior. Which I had. He told me I got the ticket because of my attitude. I looked at him and shook my head, told him he would loose the case and his buddy cops told me to get back in the house if I knew what was good.
I was planning to fight the ticket, however, a week later he called me on a Sunday night and told me that he looked up my record, and I don't have one. He said I didn't do anything wrong and apologized. He told me he tore up the ticket. He also told me that if I had a record he would have felt justified and gone ahead I would have lost the case because of my record.
Out of control if you ask me.
My neighbor who happens to teach ethics to homeland security and other foreign governments police forces was appalled. Needless to say I was looking forward to my day in court with this over zealous ass, but I accepted his apology.
Papers (not even a please) on your own property, right here in Virginia in 2005.
Every post from you on this entire thread has exactly the same premise, government has rights not granted in the Constitution.....your arguments are weak, ineffective and incorrect. Show your ID to any person you like, just don't be surprised when others disagree......
I recieved this the other day and though hilarious, soooo true, hope you get it... some profanity but great... must send to your mail cuz computer illiterate...
Terridan Hope you enjoy, I will try your mail...
I wasnt there on your scene, but the problem I see there was egos, not the validity of you having to cooperate and show you ID as part of an investigation.
As to the original post. The has had a rule since the 90's to provide ID if requested as a condition to ride the bus. If the lady doesn't agree to the rules, she shouldnt ride it. Once she is asked by the proper Representatives to leave the bus, she had to go. She refused. She was forcibly removed. Its that simple. If she doesnt like the rules of the bus, she doesn't have to ride.
"Over the years I have arrested many many people for refusing to provide ID."
You cannot lawfully arrest anyone merely for refusing to provide ID. In order to arrest them for refusing to provide ID, you have to be citing them for something else. Then, if they refuse to provide ID so that you can issue the citation, you can arrest them and take them down to the station so that their ID can be acertained.
You do NOT get to stop someone on the street, ask them for their id, and then arrest them when they tell you "no." Your post makes it appear as if that is proper when indeed it is not. Maybe that's how you operated (illegally) but it's not proper, and it's not the law in ANY state.
If they are so weak how about you point out where?
Keep in mind the truth is worth repeating over and over and over and over.
Wrong. I was very clear.
1. I only know Texas Law, so I can not speak for other States.
2. Failure to Identify is a Texas Statute on its own, and one can be charged with it, even when not being sited for other things.
Texas Penal Code § 38.02. FAILURE TO IDENTIFY.
(a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally refuses to give his name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has lawfully arrested the person and requested the information. (b) A person commits an offense if he intentionally gives a false or fictitious name, residence address, or date of birth to a peace officer who has: (1) lawfully arrested the person; (2) lawfully detained the person; or (3) requested the information from a person that the peace officer has good cause to believe is a witness to a criminal offense.
In my posting to CJ Wolf, I was very clear that when an Officer is investigating a crime (even minor ones) the Officer has the right to Identify him. read above on (3).
"You do NOT get to stop someone on the street, ask them for their id, and then arrest them when they tell you "no.""
You are correct about that. I never said any different. I did not even imply that, I did not come close to saying that.
"Maybe that's how you operated (illegally) but it's not proper, and it's not the law in ANY state."
Wrong again, I was quite clear. I do not take such an accusation lightly. I am open to discussion of the Laws of Texas, but not such personal attacks of illegal actions.
And that was because I truly didn't know who he was, I've had people walk on my property, right past the signs just like he did to get down to my creek and fish and what not, found used condoms and plenty of beer cans. Run off a few kids smoking dope. One of the pleasures that goes with being on a back road in a wooded area.
His response was "do you want to get arrested, tonight?"
There was nothing calm about him, funny thing is he didn't even tell me to put the fire out nor inspect it, just took off after giving me the summons. Left the real police to watch me and my neighbor to sulk back up to my house.
I have a general respect for the law, treat them with respect and you usually get it back, I have good friends that are cops in the same county he is, good people. It was pure ego trip on his part, maybe he was having a bad night. Family and friends in the federal area of law enforcement as well.
However the fact that I was asked for ID in this manner on my property irks me, to no end. And btw I didn't refuse to produce my id, I asked to see his first, which I thought was reasonable and with in my rights. Also I found out when he called me that he wasn't a beat officer, he was a detective. I don't know if that makes any difference in ego trips or not. He did the right thing by apologizing and I accepted it. But he was itching to arrest me from the get go and he would have if I lost my cool, but I knew that. I'm one of the most laid back people you could ever meet, however if my wife was there, she would have been arrested in a heartbeat. >{? Buses on federal property? Maybe I can accept it if it's a base or campus. Curious does this also include the interstate? How about any street in DC?
I still say things are getting a bit crazy with this ID check thing, it's personal now for me.
If you haven't seen this thread and you have time, I'd like your opinion.Deputy Police Chief Frank Fernandez said officers might, for example, surround a bank building, check the IDs of everyone going in and out and hand out leaflets about terror threats.
Yes he can arrest people for that. They do it. It's law of the land, thanks to the scotus.
BTW take it from me. Keep your id in your back pocket even if your raking leaves in your back yard, you will never know when some guy might come along and arrest you because you don't have your id.
They should have booked the bitch under Jane Doe and let her sorry ass rot in jail.
I don't care if it's not that kind of ID. = 9
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