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Christians can't afford to oppose evolution [says evangelical-biologist]
Chicago Tribune ^ | 27 November 2005 | Richard Colling

Posted on 11/28/2005 3:40:35 AM PST by PatrickHenry

The fuel driving this science education debate is easy to understand. Scientists are suspicious that Christians are trying to insert religious beliefs into science.

They recognize that science must be free, not subject to religious veto. On the other hand, many Christians fear that science is bent on removing God from the picture altogether, beginning in the science classroom--a direction unacceptable to them.

They recognize that when scientists make definitive pronouncements regarding ultimate causes, the legitimate boundaries of science have been exceeded. For these Christians, intelligent design seems to provide protection against a perceived assault from science.

But does it really lend protection? Or does it supply yet another reason to question Christian credibility?

The science education debate need not be so contentious. If the intelligent design movement was truly about keeping the legitimate plausibility of a creator in the scientific picture, the case would seem quite strong.

Unfortunately, despite claims to the contrary, the Dover version of intelligent design has a different objective: opposition to evolution. And that opposition is becoming an increasing liability for Christians.

The reason for this liability is simple: While a growing array of fossils shows evolution occurring over several billion years, information arising from a variety of other scientific fields is confirming and extending the evolutionary record in thoroughly compelling ways.

The conclusions are crystal clear: Earth is very old. All life is connected. Evolution is a physical and biological reality.

In spite of this information, many Christians remain skeptical, seemingly mired in a naive religious bog that sees evolution as merely a personal opinion, massive scientific ruse or atheistic philosophy.

(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: crevolist; evofreaks; goddooditamen; heretic; idiocy; ignoranceisstrength; mythology; scienceeducation; yecignoranceonparade
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To: jennyp

"But if H. erectus was a transitional species between apes & humans, then you should expect to see disagreement between scholars as to what it was. And lo & behold, you do!"

You would also expect to see disagreement just because people are human and don't get everything right, especially when all you have to go by is bones. This is especially interesting in the light of the fact that secular scientists are now doubting the usefulness of morphology for determining phylogenic lineages because the molecular data directly contradicts the morphologic data. Personally, I think it is because they are trying to fit a series of design patterns into a singly nested tree, when in actuality life is multiply nested.


341 posted on 11/29/2005 4:23:20 AM PST by johnnyb_61820
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To: qam1

Your cartoon in post 203 just reveals the artists lack of understanding. It's not a valid point at all. It takes what we agree on and pretends that we don't. I guess that's because he couldn't come up with anything better. But ridicule based on ignorance just make the author look stupid.


342 posted on 11/29/2005 5:43:15 AM PST by The Ghost of FReepers Past (Exalt the Lord our God, and worship at His footstool; He is holy. Ps 99:5)
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To: curiosity
It is speaking of spiritual death, not physical death.


Thats a mighty big statement there buddy.
Are you the guy with the magical power to know what the Bible "really" means? Because there are plenty of folks looking for you.

The Bible says sin brings forth death ... the wages of sin is death.

When Adam took from the tree his death began. It took him a while to get there but that is when death entered the world.

Romans 5 is a good place to start
343 posted on 11/29/2005 6:58:59 AM PST by THEUPMAN (#### comment deleted by moderator)
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To: Junior
Ever thought that Jesus came to show us how to live?

Thats an interesting idea.
Perhaps you can start a religion that goes along those lines ... or just join one of the many that are out there.

The problem is that the Bible has this theme that runs all the way through it.
Sin... death .. Saviour ... life

Now granted you don't have to go along with it. You can go with whatever you want .
But it's not right to make up a religion and then say it's what the Bible teaches ...

The whole point of the book is to reveal to us our need for the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross.

If we are just suppose to live a certain way , what was the cross all about?
344 posted on 11/29/2005 7:11:34 AM PST by THEUPMAN (#### comment deleted by moderator)
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To: VadeRetro

Stick your lying bunch of bull crap you call science where the sun don't shine, anyone stupid enough to believe evolution is to stupid for me to take to.

You're an idiot! Now leave me alone!


345 posted on 11/29/2005 7:12:35 AM PST by john_baldacci_is_a_commie
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Creationist Meltdown Placemarker
346 posted on 11/29/2005 7:16:18 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: john_baldacci_is_a_commie
I'm sure you just haven't had a chance to acquaint yourself with the evidence. You seem like a reasonable chap. Try a browse at this and see if it doesn't influence your thinking. 29+ Lines of Evidence for Macroevolution.
347 posted on 11/29/2005 7:17:42 AM PST by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: johnnyb_61820
On occasion they point out old or bad arguments that need to be put to bed, but a whole lot of it is misrepresentation.

Well, that leaves the creationist position with absolutely no arguments, then. What exactly is the creationist position then, and exactly what arguments does it use to try to debunk one of the most fundamental and solid theories in the biological sciences?

348 posted on 11/29/2005 8:07:26 AM PST by Quark2005 (Science aims to elucidate. Pseudoscience aims to obfuscate.)
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To: VadeRetro
You seem like a reasonable chap.

BWHAHHAA! Oh thats a good one.

You owe me a new keyboard and a cup of coffee.

349 posted on 11/29/2005 8:13:01 AM PST by RightWingNilla
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To: johnnyb_61820
The other index

I thought the sections on radiometric dating and the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics were especially amusing. Does this list serve any other purpose than to try to confuse people, or is it some sort of strange comedy database for scientists?

350 posted on 11/29/2005 8:16:13 AM PST by Quark2005 (Science aims to elucidate. Pseudoscience aims to obfuscate.)
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To: Sensei Ern
Jerry Falwell has done more good than you can imagine.

So you think the " Teletubbies" are gay too?

Falwell may have a big heart, but he could use a smaller mouth and an increased intellect.

351 posted on 11/29/2005 8:18:41 AM PST by elbucko
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To: Mom MD
The protection from UV radiation afforded by the canopy of the water over the earth was probably one of the reasons ancient man lived approx 10 times longer than modern man.

Also, If the people in the middle ages had followed God's dietary and sanitary laws, the plague would have never spread causing the black death...

Wow, I certainly hope the M.D. isn't for Doctor of Medicine.

352 posted on 11/29/2005 8:29:25 AM PST by Quark2005 (Science aims to elucidate. Pseudoscience aims to obfuscate.)
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past
So your idea of the conservative movement rises and sets on the theory of evolution?

Back off, jack! No more than yours does on Creationism. The founding of this country was based upon reason. Reason that the Founding Fathers gleaned from the known science of the time, philosophy AND the Bible. However, I don't see that they confounded reason, science and religion in creating the Constitution for the expressed purpose of spreading of religious dogma by the state.

I serve God first.

Well "Bully" for you!

353 posted on 11/29/2005 8:40:03 AM PST by elbucko
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To: Sensei Ern
Is this only an assumption of yours or do you have Scriptural proof?

I agree that Adam did not start "aging" (physical deterioration towards death) until after the fall...But how do you know that Genesis only accounts for Adam's post-fall days and his mentioned age of 930 years is not inclusive of his pre-fall days as well?

Prior to the fall, in Genesis 1:14, the stars, sun, moon and etc. ("lights") were given for the marking of seasons, days and years.

Given this passage, it is obvious that time was being tracked prior to the fall. This would indicate, to me, that Adam's 930 years are inclusive of the pre-fall days...It is his accurate age from the sixth day until his death.

354 posted on 11/29/2005 9:33:02 AM PST by pby
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To: pby

It is a subject of interpretation. If you want to argue on it, I will concede since to me it is of no importance.


355 posted on 11/29/2005 9:39:48 AM PST by Sensei Ern (Now, IB4Z! http://trss.blogspot.com/ "Cowards cut and run. Heroes never do!")
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To: curiosity
"Good, you have studied about metaphysics. I'm happy for you. Do you now realize that it does not necessarily have anything to do with the supernatural?"

That depends upon which "scientist" you talk to, now doesn't it. LOL

Methodological Naturalism? ~ Alvin Plantinga

The above link is posted on my FR profile page, QUOTE: "...science is said to be religiously neutral, if only because science and religion are, by their very natures, epistemically distinct. However, the actual practice and content of science challenge this claim. In many areas, science is anything but religiously neutral; moreover, the standard arguments for methodological naturalism suffer from various grave shortcomings. .." Methodological Naturalism ~ Alvin Plantinga

*

MORE: ".. Since science is not a system of thought deduced from first principles (as are traditional metaphysical systems), and that it deals precisely with objective experience, science is not, nor is any theory of science, a true metaphysical system. ...

However, the claim is sometimes, and more plausibly, made that evolutionary theory, along with some other scientific theories, functions as a kind of attitudinal metaphysical system [Ruse 1989] Ruse, M: 1989. The Darwinian Paradigm: Essays on its History, Philosophy and Religious Implications, Routledge.

Ruse also describes what he calls "metaphysical Darwinism" [ Ruse 1992 ] Ruse, M: 1992. Darwinism. In E F Keller and E A Lloyd eds Keywords in Evolutionary Biology, Harvard University Press. (as opposed to "scientific Darwinism") which is indeed a metaphysical system akin to a worldview, and which has expressed itself in numerous extra-scientific philosophies, including Spencer's, Teilhard's, and Haeckel's, or even the quasi-mystical views of Julian Huxley. .. ~ John S. Wilkins (talkorigins)

356 posted on 11/29/2005 10:13:43 AM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: durasell
"You're not doing yourself any favors on this whole metaphysics thing. Better to quit while you're ahead."

You're embarrassing yourself - in public, too.

357 posted on 11/29/2005 10:16:32 AM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
"As you keep posting, metaphysics isn't about the supernatural. Darwin was talking epistemology. You are showing yourself to be incredibly ignorant of philosophy. Why do you suppose he was talking about Locke??"

I see you're claiming to speak for all "scientists". Stop embarrassing yourself.

358 posted on 11/29/2005 10:21:25 AM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: Matchett-PI
1) Your quote from Platinga is evidence of nothing. It does not say in WHAT WAY science is allegedly religious. More importantly, it is not discussing METAPHYSICS. The claim you made is that metaphysics is about the supernatural; this is wrong.

2) "MORE: ".. Since science is not a system of thought deduced from first principles (as are traditional metaphysical systems), and that it deals precisely with objective experience, science is not, nor is any theory of science, a true metaphysical system. ...""

So? Darwin was talking about Locke's epistemology, not science. You DO know that epistemology is not science, right? You DO know why he mentioned Locke, don't you?
You have not shown in ANY way that Metaphysics is about the supernatural. Saying it is extra-scientific is NOT the same as being supernatural. Logic is also not scientific; it's an a priori system. That doesn't make it illegitimate.

I'll ask again, why did Darwin mention Locke?
359 posted on 11/29/2005 10:23:47 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Matchett-PI
Stop embarrassing YOURSELF. The statement you like to trot out from Darwin's notebooks is NOT about the scientific implications of common descent, it's about the epistemological implications. Which is why he spoke of Locke.

You obviously have never read any Locke.
360 posted on 11/29/2005 10:26:10 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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