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Those Defensive Darwinists
The Seattle Times ^ | 11/21/05 | Jonathon Witt

Posted on 11/22/2005 12:44:07 PM PST by Michael_Michaelangelo

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To: AndrewC

Quoting: "And I have no problem with what you believe, unless you assert you can save souls. In which case, I would have to demur."

Reply: Exactly what kind of an idiot are you? I never said anything remotely like I could save souls. This would be an arrogance beyond my comprehension. Why do you accuse me of such a heresy and blasphemy?

You have made a major accusation, and you should apologize.

I merely posted what some Christians have said about ID. I think my postings have been respectful and well meaning in the best traditions of FreeRepublic.

I await your public apology here on this thread.




421 posted on 11/22/2005 11:29:10 PM PST by thomaswest (Just Curious)
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To: Ichneumon
You have trouble reading plain English, I see...

As do you. I asked you not to post to me anymore. I asked you to stop the name calling. For some reason, either you do not comprehend these statements or you are such an ass that you do not care or you are one who thinks that whoever hurled the last insult carries the logical argument. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming the third. Whichever, you should stop it. Now.

422 posted on 11/23/2005 1:51:12 AM PST by TN4Liberty (American... conservative... southern.... It doesn't get any better than this.)
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To: TN4Liberty
I've seen the same condecension you have seen on these threads by people on both sides of the arguements. The big problem is that there are a lot of scientists in these forums who have a lot of legitimate issues with the lack of scientific knowledge on the part of many posters. It is very frustrating for scientists to discuss scientific topics with people who do not have rudimantary scientific literacy. Most people who are not scientists do not know what is required in order to call something a scientific theory. And on top of that, there are many posters who write many things that sound scientific but are either completely wrong or are taken way out of their scientific context. A lot of creationsist/ID websites have a lot of this stuff and people faithfully repeat what they read on those sites without the skill or knowledge to spot the fallacies.

And that goes right into the heart of ID. You say that

ID is a theory or a model.

For ID to be considered as a theory, there has to be hard facts that lead to it's construction. Sure, logic plays a role, but the logic must conform to the observables. Scientific theories are not simply thought experiments. The biggest problem is that there is no data for ID. None. Many others have asked for what facts exists that support ID and would lead to ID to be a logical conclusion. There has yet to be an answer by anyone on these threads.

ID also fails the logic test. ID assumes the universe was designed. But where did this design come from? It had to originate from something more complicated than our universe. But if, as ID claims, complexity is the yardstick of design, then the more complicated designer of our universe must be even more complicated and, by ID standards, must also have a designer. And that goes on and on and on forever. ID cannot explain the origins of the designer or design.

The other problem with ID as a theory is that it does not explain how the designer manipulates the universe in order to implement the planned design. What forces are used? How are they applied? How can they be recreated? ID offers no solution.

Another major point about a theory is that there has to be some test or challenge that can disprove it. Evolution is challengeable, but ID isn't.

Lastly, a scientific theory must make testable predictions. Again, evolution has done so on many, many occasions. How do you test ID? It doesn't have facts in order to give it weight and it does not offer any insight into future observations.

That's how theories, even bad ones, can move forward.

Bad theories don't move forward. THey are abandoned if they do not fit the facts. ID cannot be called a bad theory because, as I mentioned above, it has no facts for it to be constructed around. THe best that can be said about ID is that it is an attempt to fill in gaps in knowledge by assigning an unspecified agent as the responsible party. The problem is that, in the natural world, there is no objective way to distinguish natural processes from designed processes that appear natural.

There may well be an intelligent designer, but that is something that science cannot probe.

Overall, the only way ID can be accepted as science is to change the very meaning of science to include supernatural interference. That's what has most sciencentists howling mad. And the only way proponents of ID can get ID into science is through intellectual affermative action.

423 posted on 11/23/2005 5:01:47 AM PST by doc30 (Democrats are to morals what and Etch-A-Sketch is to Art.)
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To: thomaswest

Maybe we've taken what angels are doing and used mathematics to explain it. One thing for sure, intelligent design is not an unreasonable, or unscientific means of explaining what we observe.

Furthermore, I would posit that science cannot take place unless both intelligence and design are involved. Without either (or both) of these data is completely inaccessible to human reason. Those who argue against intelligent design as operative and accessible scientifically have offered no alternative as to what it might be, for example, that keeps atoms from randomly changing their attributes. All they can do is rant that it is "nature", and that positing an intelligent cause necessarily introduces superstition into science. In short, all they have are circular arguments, not scientific ones.


424 posted on 11/23/2005 5:18:12 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

Guilt by association has never made a good argument for either the creation or evolution point of view.


425 posted on 11/23/2005 5:22:21 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Fester Chugabrew

"Guilt by association has never made a good argument for either the creation or evolution point of view."

Luckily, this wasn't guilt by association. This was guilt by actions. And, as far as I am concerned, the episode is over.


426 posted on 11/23/2005 5:26:59 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Ichneumon
What is someone with a screen name like "Elsie" doing with a wife?

Well; if you don't KNOW, then there ain't too much chance any of your offspring will be Evolving! ;^)

427 posted on 11/23/2005 5:51:39 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie
1/10th of the way to the Beast!
428 posted on 11/23/2005 5:52:29 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: aimhigh
You can start by reading Darwin's Black Box, if you have the courage.

Do you have a source that hasn't been scientifically shredded in its totality?

429 posted on 11/23/2005 5:53:57 AM PST by RogueIsland
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
Luckily, this wasn't guilt by association. This was guilt by actions.

You hounded another Freeper over words that have little or nothing to do with the argument at hand, as if those words, however inane they were, should discredit any further arguments said Freeper might engage. That is using the argument of guilt by association.

All heat, no light.
All hat, no cattle.

Meanwhile, I would like to know how science can be "agnostic" and still rule out either theistic or atheistic interpretations of the evidence. Also, how does the intelligent design explanation necessarily lead to a supernatural, or theistic conclusion?

The fact is, Western science has for the most part begun with the primary postulate that God-did-it, and from there inductively sought to make sense of things. That is why science is always uncovering patterns, organized matter, regular behavior and such. Only when we get to the quantum level does nature take on the appearance of gibberish, which begs the question as to how so much potential disorder can manifest itself through orderly processes.

To infer therefrom that an intelligent designer may be involved is hardly unreasonable or unscientific.

430 posted on 11/23/2005 6:00:26 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Cicero

[It was Christianity which taught that the universe is rational and comprehensible and that God does not act arbitrarily.]

Doesn't that go back to the ancient Greeks?


431 posted on 11/23/2005 6:01:02 AM PST by starbase (One singular sensation.)
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To: Heartlander
Since Darwinian evolution seeks to promote 'no-design' as a scientific concept, and since all scientific concepts are tentative and refutable, then the disagreement with the hypothesis of no design is scientific

I demand equal time for the hypothesis that ballistic objects have a parabolic trajectory because angels are pushing them, not because of Newton's laws.

Since ballistic physics seeks to promote 'no-angels' as a scientific concept, and since all scientific concepts are tentative and refutable, then the disagreement with the hypothesis of no-angels is scientific.

432 posted on 11/23/2005 6:21:24 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Fester Chugabrew
For every atom that does not disintegrate or change properties randomly they have to give an answer that has the appearance of science.

Care to elaborate?

On the surface, this is one of the silliest posts I have read this morning.

433 posted on 11/23/2005 6:26:29 AM PST by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: RadioAstronomer

Those who argue against intelligent design as causative and/or operative in the universe should explain how particle matter retains its consistency completely apart from intelligence or design.


434 posted on 11/23/2005 6:31:08 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Right Wing Professor
Since ballistic physics seeks to promote 'no-angels' as a scientific concept . . .

I didn't know ballistic physics does such a thing. Can you cite a source that "promotes" a "no-angels" concept? I'm sure there are plenty that make no reference to angels. That is not the same thing.

435 posted on 11/23/2005 6:35:56 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: Right Wing Professor
Sure a lot of pulled comments upthread last night. Glad I went to bed.

And now for something completely different--science!

Australopithecus gahri

Suspicions exist that the East African Australopithecus garhi may represent an evolutionary link between Australopithecus and Homo. The remains are from the time when there is very few fossils, between 2.0-3.0 million years ago. Tim White was the scientist to find the first of A. garhi's key fossils in 1996 near the village of Bouri, located in the Afar region of Ethiopia.

http://www.msu.edu/~heslipst/contents/ANP440/index.htm


436 posted on 11/23/2005 6:36:26 AM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Coyoteman; Right Wing Professor
Sure a lot of pulled comments upthread last night. Glad I went to bed.

It was "Stingy Dog" being nuked out of existence.

437 posted on 11/23/2005 6:47:24 AM PST by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: Fester Chugabrew
Those who argue against intelligent design as causative and/or operative in the universe should explain how particle matter retains its consistency completely apart from intelligence or design.

Let me see if I understand you here.

Are you saying God holds every atom intact until he allows one to "fly apart"? Is that you conjecture?

438 posted on 11/23/2005 6:49:09 AM PST by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: RadioAstronomer

By and large yes, although it would be more accurate to say God designed the universe in such a manner that this detail would be attended to without His direct intervention or involvement, much as an automobile does not needs its designer to accompany every moving part all the time.


439 posted on 11/23/2005 6:51:21 AM PST by Fester Chugabrew
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To: RadioAstronomer
It was "Stingy Dog" being nuked out of existence.

He went up on the "Black Wall" last night.

440 posted on 11/23/2005 6:55:07 AM PST by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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