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Missing trader: what next, asks market (Chinese copper trader disappears)
Reuters ^ | 11/15/05

Posted on 11/15/2005 9:05:19 PM PST by defenderSD

SHANGHAI (Reuters) - A copper trader for a secretive, high-level Chinese government agency has gone missing. But more than his whereabouts, traders are seeking clues as to how his employer -- and Beijing -- will handle the potential fallout.

Liu Qibing, a senior trader working for an entity of China's State Reserves Bureau, hasn't been heard from for a few weeks, since rumors surfaced of a large short position held by his employer in London copper markets.

The position, rumored to be between 150,000 and 200,000 tons, was taken as a bet that copper would fall -- just as the industrial metal continued to hit new peaks.

"We all really just want to go up there and pay them a visit, to find out what is really going on," said a Shanghai-based copper trader with a Hong Kong metals trading firm.

"Right now, if the copper market is like a highway, there's a student driver out there driving a tank, and everyone else just wants to get out of the way."

--------------------------------------------------------------- snip ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

(Excerpt) Read more at news.moneycentral.msn.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Extended News; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: china; commodities; copper; trading
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Another tragic story about the perils of short selling.
1 posted on 11/15/2005 9:05:21 PM PST by defenderSD
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To: defenderSD
It's all Bush's fault.



2 posted on 11/15/2005 9:14:22 PM PST by Cacique (quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat ( Islamia Delenda Est ))
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To: defenderSD

If I were a Chinese copper trader in that situation, I'd get the eff out of Dodge reeeeeeeeeal fast;)


3 posted on 11/15/2005 9:18:43 PM PST by Frank_2001
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To: defenderSD

George Soros must be glad he lives in a country where he doesn't "disappear" when he does something against the national interest.

Then again maybe he thinks he's next...


4 posted on 11/15/2005 9:22:53 PM PST by coconutt2000 (NO MORE PEACE FOR OIL!!! DOWN WITH TYRANTS, TERRORISTS, AND TIMIDCRATS!!!! (3-T's For World Peace))
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To: defenderSD

Don't mean the perils of wreckless trading. What difference does it make if you are long or short but caught with large positions on the wrong side of the market? There is nothing wrong with short selling. If people didn't do it, you couldn't get your long trades filled.


5 posted on 11/15/2005 9:23:23 PM PST by Wolfhound777 (It's not our job to forgive them. Only God can do that. Our job is to arrange the meeting)
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To: Wolfhound777
Yeah you're right. This looks more like a case of taking a huge position in one commodity on one side of the market, i.e, reckless trading. This reminds me of the old maxim about stock and commodity trading:

"Never trade with money you can't afford to lose."

Looks like this poor guy broke that rule.

6 posted on 11/15/2005 9:27:56 PM PST by defenderSD (What do Bush, Blair, Aznar, and Berlusconi know about Saddam's regime that Democrats don't know?)
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To: defenderSD

Exactly. We have to remember if someone else doesn't take the other side of our trade (short for example) there is really no market. We would all be buyers and no one would be willing to sell to us. I have a feeling that we won't hear from this guy again. People have been taken out for much, much less. He lost the Chinese a ton of money.


7 posted on 11/15/2005 9:30:37 PM PST by Wolfhound777 (It's not our job to forgive them. Only God can do that. Our job is to arrange the meeting)
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To: Wolfhound777

I don't know about commodities, but you can still get your long trades filled by market makers without any short selling on the other side. But where short selling really benefits the stock market in a huge way is when the market has already plunged a long way and buyers get scared. At that time, short sellers buying back borrowed shares are sometimes the ONLY buyers in the market for some stocks and they play a crucial role in stabilizing the stock market.


8 posted on 11/15/2005 9:30:53 PM PST by defenderSD (What do Bush, Blair, Aznar, and Berlusconi know about Saddam's regime that Democrats don't know?)
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To: defenderSD

Your right but in the futures markets, it's zero sum. There is somebody directly opposite your position for every contract. If you are long, someone else is short and vice versa.


9 posted on 11/15/2005 9:32:26 PM PST by Wolfhound777 (It's not our job to forgive them. Only God can do that. Our job is to arrange the meeting)
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To: defenderSD

No worse then the perils of long trading....


10 posted on 11/15/2005 9:37:29 PM PST by M-cubed
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To: Wolfhound777

Bingo!...gotta have 2 sides to trade..


11 posted on 11/15/2005 9:39:00 PM PST by M-cubed
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To: Wolfhound777
What difference does it make if you are long or short but caught with large positions on the wrong side of the market?

In theory the futures market could be limit-up on the open forever, and if short, maximum theoretical loss is infinite.

If long - even 200,000 tons long - and limit-down on the open, maximum theoretical loss is 100%.

OTOH, maximum theoretical loss is "all you have" either way.

12 posted on 11/15/2005 9:40:22 PM PST by 1stMarylandRegiment (Conserve Liberty)
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To: 1stMarylandRegiment

Maybe he should have tried cattle futures.


13 posted on 11/15/2005 9:43:02 PM PST by gov_bean_ counter (It is easy to call for a pi$$ing contest when you aren't going to be in the line of fire.)
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To: M-cubed

Yeah, I think it's a psychological barrier for a lot of traders. Being "short" is equated with "bad" or "un-patriotic" for some reason. To me it's just part of the normal ebb and flow (trends) in the markets.


14 posted on 11/15/2005 9:45:03 PM PST by Wolfhound777 (It's not our job to forgive them. Only God can do that. Our job is to arrange the meeting)
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To: defenderSD

Another reason China will fail.


15 posted on 11/15/2005 9:49:54 PM PST by Porterville (Pray for War- Spanish by birth, American by the Grace of God!!!)
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To: defenderSD

"Never trade with money you can't afford to lose."<<<
Tell that to the big banks/funds that short sell gold and silver and are allowed to short more then exists...unlike the regulated little guy that must have stock or a commodity available to be able to short...Hence the big boys control the price pure and simple...try Bill Butler here for some reference> http://www.financialsense.com/metals/main.htm


16 posted on 11/15/2005 9:52:32 PM PST by M-cubed
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To: 1stMarylandRegiment
In theory the futures market could be limit-up on the open forever, and if short, maximum theoretical loss is infinite..

Exactly. I didn't see in the article whether there were limit days responsible for his losses or not but this guy obviously either didn't predefine his risk, or just second guessed his plan for some reason and starting "hoping". Sometimes your exit is the most important part of the trade, especially the one that shows a loss, albeit a manageable loss before it becomes catastrophic to your account and blows you up.
17 posted on 11/15/2005 9:56:15 PM PST by Wolfhound777 (It's not our job to forgive them. Only God can do that. Our job is to arrange the meeting)
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To: Wolfhound777

Yup....the only time anyone likes a short is when he's covering and putting the breaks on a crash...


18 posted on 11/15/2005 10:01:15 PM PST by M-cubed
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To: gov_bean_ counter

Maybe he should have tried cattle futures.<<
Only if he had Hillerys broker!


19 posted on 11/15/2005 10:03:33 PM PST by M-cubed
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To: Wolfhound777
A guy in China shorting the copper market is an idiot though, China is the driving force behind the big runup and even if their demand slacked the shortfall is currently enourmous...
20 posted on 11/15/2005 10:10:22 PM PST by Axenolith (Got Au? Ag?)
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