Posted on 11/15/2005 3:14:06 PM PST by Pikamax
Sorry, Father In Law. We have traveled all over the world and always wanted to go to Israel, of course. Some other travelers we knew were meeting there in Tel Aviv, with an Israeli organizing standard tours for us. He said we'd be killed if we went to Bethlehem but another in our group had had a friend go recently without incident, so we hired a guide there via internet and were delivered to the checkpoint by a Tel Aviv taxi driver who picked us up later and took us back to the hotel. Shortly before we left, we found the son of Daddy's friend via email and the guide arranged for him to meet us at the Church of the Nativity. He invited us to his home in Bethany where we had dinner after the disastrous Jerusalem tour and sent us to Jericho with his cousin where we also picked up his nephew and they showed on the sights in my pix posted earlier. We have travelled millions of miles and never been on a package tour, always going off on our own or hiring individual guides for special things we want to see. I should have known better to sign up for those things with our Israeli friend and just done our own thing but it sounded so good on paper and we'd be with friends, but who knew it would be a bust? Anyway, we'll know better next time, stay in Jerusalem and really dig in, go on some day trips and we'd like to do Jordan and Petra also. Actually, I just read the excavations at Ur in Iraq are open again and our servicemen in the area can tour that, cool, huh? If you haven't been, the excavations under the Vatican are fabulous, too.
Deuteronomy 2:14 And the time we took to come from Kadesh Barnea until we crossed over the Valley of the Zered was thirty-eight years, until all the generation of the men of war was consumed from the midst of the camp, just as the LORD had sworn to them.
See you at the Tick Tock Diner !
The next time you go, try to see Mount Carmel and Mount Tabor, especially Tabor. Those have pretty churches and beautiful views, and you might find some of the villages around those mountains interesting, as Druze live near Carmel and Bedouin live near Tabor. Sepphoris near Nazareth has incredible floor mosaics, and whatever you do, don't miss the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. It is awesome.
http://www.gemsinisrael.com/archive.html
Isn't that where the Dead Sea scrolls are? Did I post earlier than my father in law was the first person to translate them? We even had a tiny scrap of them. They are sending some to the Museum of Man in San Diego in 2007. A prof at SDSU will be curating.
Yes, the Shrine of the Book containing the Dead Sea scrolls is at the Israel Museum. An exhibit of the scrolls was in Mobile, AL last year and I missed it, but as luck would have it, an exhibit will be in Charlotte, NC next year and I will make sure not to miss it. The Shrine of the Book was closed when I visited the museum in 2004, and I also didn't get to see it in 1998.
This is what happens when you put an expert on Soviet affairs into a role of Secretary of State who's major challenge is to deal with Islam. She has no experience on the subject and she's proved it.
The Soviets were generally held to their agreements, such as removing Cuban missles, because of the principle of Mutually Assured Distruction. The Soviet government also ran the show.
Islamic terrorism is different. The leaders are not necessarily linked to the government but usually allowed to conduct their business freely. So it is a lot harder to acxuse the Islamic government of terrorist-related activities. Normally, the Islamic government, like Pakistan, makes a lot of noise that they are trying to "control terrorism," but in reality do nothing. Additionally, even if Abbas has good intentions, he does not have the power to control factions like Hamas.
There are other reasons why our support of Israel has been lackluster. With the Soviet Union, we had no economic interest in the Soviet Union. In Islamic states, economic interests helps to keep our heads in the sand. Our economic dealings with Saudi Arabia gives them a pass for promoting jihad, building mosques across the US, and distributing islamists reading material at those mosques. Our relationship with OPEC/Saudi Arabia affects our dealing with the PLO. Business interests prevent the US from being overtly pro-Jewish, but voters are largely pro-Israel, so government officials try to sit on the fence. At the end of the day, Israel gets the shaft even though we make it seem like real peace is being made.
Bascially what we need is economic divestment from the Middle East. The freer the US economy is from OPEC, the easier it will be to support Israel. This should have begun on September 12th, 2001, but there were too many people making easy money from Saudi oil to let this happen.
"The US government roasted a bunch of people in Waco, Texas too. "
You appear to be a moral equivocator. You think paying to irradiate children is the same as what happened in Waco. I see them as very different moral problems, the former (irradiation) being exponentially worse than the latter (Waco). And you think the Israeli "terrorists" of yesterday are the same as the Palestinian terror jihadists of today.
Normally I see this kind of moral insufficiency on the left. Aside from whatever other disagreements I have with the left, this, to me, is their greatest failure. By example, it allows them to equate Saddam's killing with US action in removing Saddam. They per force must resort to exaggeration and lies to make unequals meet in their fabricated moral landscape.
"I don't know anything more than you do about the veracity of that article. I posted it because your article showing Ben Gurion to be a ruthless backstabbing bastard reminded me of it."
Two problems with that statement. One, I do know about the lack of veracity of that article on irradiating Sephardi children. It is BS.
Two, my condemnation was of Rabin for the Altalena. PM Ben Gurion was NOT "a ruthless backstabbing bastard." He was in the midsts of negotiation when Rabin pulled the trigger. Even those who support PM Begin and the Irgun do not consider BG the same as Rabin. Considering them the same is more moral eqivalency.
Jewish population as a "provocation" for killing them? Where have I heard that before?
"Frankly, I'm of the opinion that Israel should be reduced to a "Vatican City" type enclave and the rest of Palestine become a NATO protectorate with a secular constitutional tripartite limited government."
I don't understand. Israel should be a Jewish State the way Vatican City is a Catholic State? Israel already is a Jewish State. What in your definition is "Israel" and what is "Palestine?" Are you proposing here the elimination of the Jewish State of Israel?
"I used to defend Israel until fairly recently. After seeing the incredible amount of bigotry coming from the Zionists here on FR, coupled with reading some of the Israeli web sites, I have changed my mind."
Does the above opinion constitute your earlier "defense" of Israel or your changed mind? Which came first your proposal about an Israel Vatican City or the Zionist and Israeli web "bigotry" you saw. I can see a causal connection between the two.
---By contrast, the Palestinians we found to take us around instead knew every inch of history like pros and having spent much time in the US spoke perfect English.---
So, have you started wearing one of those cool Palastinian scarves that are so popular on California campuses?
Is it true that you support Iran in her nuclear ambitions?
This is a truly misleading statement.
The Israelis in my family are "secular" Jews. When I visited Israel, there were Shabbat dinners each of the three weeks I was there. (Two households.) Maybe they didn't regularly attend services on Saturday or any day, except the holidays, but they and everyone else greeted one on Friday after about 10 AM with, "Shabbat Shalom."
One of these folks recently visited me here in the US. She went with me to shul on Saturday morning and clearly knew what was going on. She found her own way to a shul in NYC the week after, but I'd guess she hasn't been back to her own shul in Jerusalem since (Sept). Is she one of your not remotely religious Jews?
ML/NJ
Here you are correct, IMHO. A couple of years ago an 18 year-old female family member visited me for a day. When she departed her destination was someplace in Brooklyn so I drove her there. On our way we drove through an Orthodox neighborhood. When she saw her first "black hat" her reaction was one of disgust.
(Mine own is Kol Yisroel Havayrim, BTW.)
ML/NJ
Just so you know I attend sevices which run three hours plus nearly every Saturday morning. This morning I attended (because I was asked to do so) a weekday morning service which ran about 50 minutes. I have and have read/consulted more than 50 books on Torah alone (Gen, Ex, Lev, Num, Dut). Yet I am not considered "observant."
ML/NJ
I'm sorry to hear that. The US Orthodox Jews I have had the pleasure to know are delightful people who get great serenity from their faith. Many of them have a wondrous sense of humor under those "black hats."
Thank you for sharing that. I wish you comfort and wisdom from your Torah study.
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