Bird Flu May Over-Stimulate Immune System

Science Daily ^ | 11-11-2005

[Judith Anne]

Outstanding posts. Thanks--those are much appreciated.

People thinking of taking turmeric (curcumin) for it's excellent antiviral effects should remember that it stimulates bile production, and so could be dangerous for someone with gall stones. Turmeric is also a potent blood thinner. People taking coumadin should check with their doctors before using turmeric.

Cinnamon also has antiviral and antibiotic effects, but should not be used by anyone taking medication for diabetes, because cinnamon definitely lowers blood sugar. Taking cinnamon in 500 mg capsules could interact with the antidiabetic medication.

Honey and fresh garlic mixed can be taken to coat the throat and have a protective antiviral effect. I don't know of any side effects, unless you are diabetic, and then you should not take it.

[steve86]

Yes, I agree that anyone should read about the side effects of these products. For example, the black pepper extract piperine greatly increases the absorption of some prescription drugs, as well. Could result in a dangerously elevated serum level.

[steve86]

For anyone interested in reading about the physiological effects of Indian spices, including Tumeric, this is not a bad overview:

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3867/is_200405/ai_n9444760

[steve86]

Ping. I thought you might be interested in the Indian Journal article, above.

[ThePythonicCow]

I've continued to search on the Web for alternative medicines affective against the cytokine storm thought to be caused by H5N1 bird flu. The site that best represents what I could find, with a good list of herbs to use and to avoid, is http://bird-flu-influenza.com/relenza-tamiflu-alternatives-folk-medicines.htm.

It, and several other sites, also recommend:

• keeping your distance from others - stay away.
• washing hands
• bleach diluted in water disinfectant
• P2N95 masks
• agressively hydrating the sick (plenty of water)

[ThePythonicCow]

The http://bird-flu-influenza.com site I just linked above recommends against using Elder berries, saying they increase, not decrease cytokines, as do many of the anti-viral herbs usually recommended for the flu.

[EBH]

Ping.

[blam]

Is tumeric and turmeric the same thing?

[blam]

Thanks, I've bookmarked the site.

[Boundless]

> P2N95 masks

These masks seem to be designed to prevent disease
spread in both directions - to and from wearer.

Since the main interest with H5N1 is in [not] getting it,
and not giving it, I presume that a conventional industrial
respirator would suffice, if outfitted with suitable
cartridges.

What sort of cartridges?

[Myrddin]

Viruses that kill 50% to 80% (as H5N1 is doing, in its isolated cases so far) are less dangerous to humankind, because they kill too many, limiting its spread.

The quick kill, limited spread mechanism is common in Ebola outbreaks, but those populations are already living in sparsely populated jungles. The density of modern cities and mobility of populations between them will put a whole new dynamic into the next pandemic.

[ThePythonicCow]

I presume that a conventional industrial respirator would suffice

I doubt it. Someone infected (perhaps not knowing it yet) with a virus is like a walking cloud of virii. If you get within 3 feet of them or their wake, you need a filter that will stop almost all particles down to .3 micron or some such. Are the industrial respirators you mention able to do this? If not, they're useless.

[steve86]

Yes, the N95 class of mask/respirator is considered adequate vis-a-vis particle size. The 95 refers to 95% stoppage at a target size. It all comes down to mask fit and handling. The metal strip at the top of most masks has to be formed properly to fit the nasal bridge of an individual. Beards can't be present (not a problem for 50% here). Removing and disposal of the mask has to be done extremely carefully. One of the most important benefits of a mask is it stops you from touching your face.

[raygun]

I was suprised to read about that, as it was touted as being a good preventative prophalaxis one of the avian flu thread's. I was pleased to read that Vit C was recommended though. I'm a very strong advocate of Vit C, and take megadoses of it upon first signs of illness.

However, there's no mention whatsoever about N-Acetyl Cysteine

You can read more about glycosacharides such as that at this site (automatic PDF download)

A good thing that I read was they were touting cat's claw. I have a cat and she has all her claws, so I should be good to go in that regard. And she knows that she gets clipped every once in a while. I'm not clear what you're supposed to do with 'em though. Do you smoke 'em or something?

[little jeremiah]

Yup, if no one answered yet. Just jumping in here, so I don't know what was said up the thread. Turmeric, golden seal, and ginger are all in the same family, and have some similar properties. Turmeric is amazing stuff. Good to put on cuts, wounds, infections, pimpls, boils, and to take internally for all manner of illnesses. It's good to eat every day in food.

[Judith Anne]

The http://bird-flu-influenza.com site I just linked above recommends against using Elder berries, saying they increase, not decrease cytokines, as do many of the anti-viral herbs usually recommended for the flu.

I've read multiple discussions on this, pro and con. On the con side, yes, they do stimulate the immune system and may increase the ability to produce cytokines as well. On the other hand, elderberries can decrease the total viral load that gets into the system, and can prevent replication of the virus in a host cell, thus keeping immune reaction lower than without elderberries.

So this is a judgement call that everyone has to make for themselves about any natural antiviral, including even garlic.

Personally, I take elderberry tonic, that I have made myself, a tablespoon in the morning and one at night. I have opted FOR the elderberries, since they reduce total viral load in Israeli research, and prevent or reduce viral replication once in the body. It's my thinking that will reduce the body's immune response.

Truthfully, at this point we don't know.

[Judith Anne]

Is tumeric and turmeric the same thing?

As far as I know, just two different spellings of the same thing. Curcumin is the active ingredient, iirc.

[raygun]

Normal influenza rates are approx 4.8%. Those in close contact with those index cases have approx 12% risk associated of becoming infected. Supposing that the avian flu becomes as easily transmitable as your normal garden variety of influenza:

4.8% of 296 million people, plus 12% of (2.5 x 4.8% of 296 million), of which sum total 1/2 could plausibly die. According to my calculations this works out to 9.2352

In the 1918 flu pandemic, the majority of deaths was in the 13 to 40 age group. Of the avian flu the overwhelming majority of deaths has been in the <35 age group.

Kind of brings a different perspective on the age old mantra of:

Ring around the posey, pocket full of rosie, ashes, ashes, we all fall down!

[blam]

"Yup, if no one answered yet. Just jumping in here, so I don't know what was said up the thread. Turmeric, golden seal, and ginger are all in the same family, and have some similar properties. Turmeric is amazing stuff. Good to put on cuts, wounds, infections, pimpls, boils, and to take internally for all manner of illnesses. It's good to eat every day in food."

Well, I have some because I deliberately went looking some time back. I read an article that stated there was pretty good evidence that it will prevent Alzheimers Disease. Now, if I could just remember where I put it. (just kiddin')

[2ndreconmarine]

Excellent, excellent article.

It made real sense. I liked in particular the ProMed references, although I was not able to locate the specific citations by number.

The most important point was that the operational mode of the H5N1 is different from other flu viruses. As a direct consequence, treatments for some types of flu actually make Avian worse

Specifically, elderberry or Sambucol makes it worse, because it strengthens the "cytokine storm" immune response, which is the very mechanism for Avian pathology. Therefore, we might want to modify blam's list:

Star Anise......... perhaps, but may require procesing
Ginseng............ OK
Sauerkraut/kinchi.. actually makes it worse!!!
Licorice........... OK
Grape juice........ use Resveratrol instead
Cinnamon........... OK
Elder berries......(Sambucol) actually makes it worse

Now we need to add:
Vitamin C
Garlic
Green Tea, probably need the extract
St. Johns Wort
Cat's Claw, as a last resort
Curcumin / Turmeric
Scutellaria