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France Braces for 13th Night of Violence (Live Thread)
AP via Yahoo ^ | By CHRISTINE OLLIVIER, Associated Press Writer

Posted on 11/08/2005 1:21:52 PM PST by Simmy2.5

PARIS - President Jacques Chirac declared a 12-day state of emergency Tuesday, paving the way for curfews to be imposed on riot-hit cities and towns in an extraordinary measure to halt France's worst civil unrest in nearly four decades. Meanwhile, police said the nightly rioting that began Oct. 27 ago was showing signs of abating.

"The intensity of this violence is on the way down," National Police Chief Michel Gaudin said, citing fewer attacks on public buildings and fewer direct clashes between youths and police. He said rioting was reported in 226 towns across France, compared with nearly 300 the night before.

Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin reached out to heavily immigrant suburbs where the rioting began, tacitly acknowledging that France has failed to live up to its egalitarian ideals.

The state-of-emergency decree — invoked under a 50-year-old law — allows curfews where needed and will become effective at midnight Tuesday, with an initial 12-day limit. Police who have been massively reinforced as the violence has fanned out from its initial flash point in Paris' northeastern suburbs were expected to enforce the curfews. The army has not been called in.

The mayhem sweeping the neglected and impoverished neighborhoods with large African and Arab communities is forcing France to confront anger building for decades among residents who complain of discrimination and unemployment. Although many French-born children of Arab and black African immigrants are Muslim, police say the violence is not being driven by Islamic groups.

Discrimination is a "daily and repeated" reality in tough suburbs, feeding the frustration of youths made to feel that they don't belong in France, he said.

"We must be lucid: The Republic is at a moment of truth," Villepin said at an impassioned parliamentary debate Tuesday where lawmakers also spoke frankly about France's failings.

"The effectiveness of our integration model is in question," the prime minister said. He called the riots "a warning" and "an appeal."

Nationwide, vandals burned 1,173 cars overnight Monday to Tuesday, compared with 1,408 vehicles the night before, police said. A total of 330 people were arrested, down from 395 the previous night.

Local officials "will be able to impose curfews on the areas where this decision applies," Chirac said at a Cabinet meeting. "It is necessary to accelerate the return to calm."

The recourse to a 1955 state-of-emergency law that dates back to France's war in Algeria was a measure both of the gravity of mayhem that has spread to hundreds of French towns and cities and of the determination of Chirac's sorely tested government to quash it.

Curfew violators face up to two months imprisonment and a $4,400 fine, the justice ministry said. Minors face one month in jail.

Under the emergency decree, officials can put troublemakers under house arrest, ban or limit the movement of people and vehicles, confiscate weapons, and close public spaces where gangs gather, Villepin said. But he cautioned that restoring order "will take time."

The violence erupted Oct. 27 as a localized riot in a northeast Paris suburb angry over the accidental deaths of two teenagers, of Mauritanian and Tunisian descent, who were electrocuted while hiding from police in a power substation. It has grown into a nationwide insurrection by disillusioned suburban youths.

The unrest claimed its first victim Monday, with the death of a 61-year-old man beaten into a coma last week. Foreign governments have warned tourists to be careful in France. Apparent copycat attacks have spread to Belgium and Germany, where cars were burned.

France is using fast-track trials to punish rioters, worrying some human rights campaigners.

At one court in the northeastern Paris suburb of Bobigny, 60 riot-related cases were processed in one day and the court has called in three extra magistrates to deal with the overflow. The Justice Ministry said Tuesday that 52 adults and 23 minors have been sentenced to prison or detention centers.

The resort to curfews drew a cautious response from Chirac's political opponents.

The main opposition Socialists, through their parliamentary leader Jean-Marc Ayrault, said they did not oppose the use of curfews but also warned that they should not be used to hide suburban "misery" or become "a new mark of segregation."

Communist Party leader Marie-George Buffet said the decree could enflame rioters. "It could be taken anew as a sort of challenge to carry out more violence," she said.

Late Monday, rioters in the southern city of Toulouse ordered passengers off a bus, then set it on fire and pelted police with gasoline bombs and rocks. Youths also torched another bus in the northeastern Paris suburb of Stains, national police spokesman Patrick Hamon said.

Outside Paris in Sevran, a junior high school was set ablaze, while in the suburb of Vitry-sur-Seine youths threw gasoline bombs at a hospital, Hamon said. Nobody was injured.

Rioters also attacked a police station with gasoline bombs in Chenove, in Burgundy's Cote D'Or, Hamon said. A nursery school in Lille-Fives, in northern France, was set on fire, regional officials said.

French historians say the rioting is more widespread and more destructive in material terms than the May riots of 1968, when university students erected barricades in Paris' Latin Quarter and across France, throwing paving stones at police. That unrest, a turning point in modern France, led to a general strike by 10 million workers and forced President Gen. Charles De Gaulle to dissolve parliament and fire Premier Georges Pompidou.

___

Associated Press Writers Jamey Keaten, Jocelyn Gecjer, D'Arcy Doran and John Leicester contributed to this report.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: cheeseeating; france; insurgency; intifada; jihad; lads; muslims; ouijad; parisriots; paristine; quagmire; surrender; surrendermonkeys; terrorism; uprising; yoots; youths
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To: Ray66
Thans this is the same as hinding behind women and children.

I would hope that even the most hardened among us would never advocate shooting down 11 and 12 year old children. It would appear that in these affected areas there is a lack of defined leadership. Power vacuum if you will. The local government seems to have deferred to the centralized apparatchik. There does seem to be higher level coordination. One should not confuse coordination with leadership. Classic failure of leadership at the family, street, zone, and sector level; coupled with dependency on the state. This makes for a good example of results from federalizing community services such as education, fire, and police. It is always a bad idea.

261 posted on 11/08/2005 5:31:15 PM PST by ARealMothersSonForever (Proud to be named as a member of the Radical Right Wing. Vast Right Wing got old.)
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To: norton

The intellectuals are part of that group. When most of the people of the third world is cut out of formal land ownership, the people set up their own land ownership system, but it is all local. That is a problem. They have ownership of a sort, but it does them no good when it comes to using their ownership as collateral for bank loans. So, they are industrious and make a living outside the legal system. 80% of the world is like that. $trillions is sitting unusable as capital in shantytown. The poor possess vast wealth, which may be a surprise to learn. But, they can't gain entry to the real game. The islamists are taking their turn at forcing entry since communism has failed, but the islamists will end up destroying the very thing they want the most.


262 posted on 11/08/2005 5:32:20 PM PST by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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Finally, the two kinds of people we hate the most in one place; the French and the Muslims.

Let's nuke 'em!


263 posted on 11/08/2005 5:34:34 PM PST by confederate_infidel (Tunafish: taste like dolphin.)
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To: river rat

And plenty more of us who have learned to use firearms for that very purpose as well. An Islamic (or Mexican) uprising would be the perfect opportunity to cleanse some of the poisons.


264 posted on 11/08/2005 5:34:57 PM PST by thoughtomator (Alito Akbar)
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Comment #265 Removed by Moderator

To: Republicain
What is new is that violences don't stop (13 nights now) and are spreading to almost all the "quartier difficile" (difficult quarters), which are numerous.

Bad neighborhoods don't seem so bad when described as "quartier difficile".

It this country we call them ghettos.

266 posted on 11/08/2005 5:35:53 PM PST by FreeReign
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To: areafiftyone

I still can't believe that France hasn't stumbled on to the sure fire cure to this violence. All they have to do is pass more Molitov Coctail legislation.

I would suggest that Molitov Coctails are already illegal, but it does frame the gun debate in the absurdist of ways.

If legislation or laws ended problems with things like guns and Molitov Coctails, there wouldn't be any Molitov Coctails being used in France.

Gun laws are a complete waste of time. Making something illegal, does not eliminate the true criminals from using it.

Let citizens own guns to defend themselves. Remember, if Molitov Coctails are illegal, only criminals will have Molitov Coctails. Is anyone going to disagree with that? No, I doubt even the French could muster a whimper in objection.


267 posted on 11/08/2005 5:36:13 PM PST by DoughtyOne
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To: LikeLight

You have precisely described Intifada. It is a win-win for the insurrectionists. Or, more accurately, a lose-lose for those in power. France is becoming Israel. How ironic.


INDEED, HOW IRONIC.

Chirac and Arafat
Jacques Chirac's relationship with the Iraqi dictator was not an exception but part of a pattern of embracing Middle Eastern rulers hostile to international norms of behavior and in conflict with Western democracies. Soon after assuming the presidency, Chirac sought rapprochement with Palestinian Authority leader Yasir Arafat. On March 13, 1996, for example, Chirac told Arafat, "When you have a problem, call Doctor Chirac."[52] Arafat inculcated the message. Later that year during a joint Ramallah press conference with Chirac, Arafat declared, "We need Doctor Chirac to save the peace process."[53]

When French foreign minister Michel Barnier began his first Middle East tour in June 2004, he scheduled a meeting with Arafat, foregoing a meeting with Sharon to do so. Barnier's visit tried to undercut the efforts of Bush, Sharon, and other Western leaders, who were seeking to isolate Arafat because of his support of terrorism. Barnier said that the French government wanted to reaffirm Arafat's indispensable role in the Middle East and said that Israel's isolation of Arafat was disgraceful.[54] Chirac reiterated this criticism during the June 2004 NATO summit in Istanbul saying,

Arafat is probably the only person capable of imposing on the Palestinian people compromises, particularly of a territorial nature, which could not be imposed, today at any rate, by anyone else. This is why I believe that wanting to isolate him isn't very prudent or very much in line with a strategy of restoring peace.[55]

The French government's outreach to Arafat led it not only to turn a blind eye to his role in terrorism[56] but also to twist the historical record to exculpate him for previous failures to negotiate. Following the collapse of the July 2000 Camp David II summit between Arafat and Israeli prime minister Ehud Barak, President Bill Clinton blamed Arafat for refusing the peace deal arrived at by his negotiators.[57] In a June 2004 interview with right-wing daily Le Figaro, Hubert Vedrine, French foreign affairs minister between 1997 and 2002, suggested that the fault was not Arafat's and that Clinton, as an American politician beholden to the U.S. Jewish lobby, had no choice but to criticize the Palestinian politician.[58] Such suggestions flew in the face of the historical record but nevertheless proved popular with an Arab audience that wanted to admit no responsibility.

As Arafat's health deteriorated in his Ramallah compound, Chirac interceded for the Palestinian politician. French taxpayers footed the expense not only for Arafat's transportation but also for that of his entire entourage. Chirac placed several Palestinian officials in a five-star hotel at French government expense.[59] The red carpet treatment ensured French favor among the Palestinian street. French flags and posters thanking Chirac dotted the Ramallah square outside Arafat's headquarters.[60]

In a partly handwritten October 28, 2004 note to the ill Arafat, Chirac said, "I wish that you could resume as soon as possible your work at the service of the Palestinian people ... [France] will always stand next to you."[61] Le Figaro commented that Paris had become the capital of Palestine for the thirteen days of Arafat's deathwatch.[62] Upon Arafat's death, the stoic Chirac had tears in his eyes as he eulogized him as "a man of courage and conviction."[63] The embrace of Arafat through his final days got Chirac what he wanted: to be the center of attention of the world and bolster French influence in the Arab world.


268 posted on 11/08/2005 5:36:56 PM PST by Fred Nerks (The media isn't mainstream it's the ENEMY! The enemy enemy ENEMEDIA!)
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To: Fred Nerks

Thank heaven for little girls - the French Anthem


269 posted on 11/08/2005 5:39:58 PM PST by outofhere2
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Comment #270 Removed by Moderator

To: Republicain
So what's objectionable about using guns to put this down? I think, following Machiavelli, that you cannot prevent war, only postpone it to the advantage of your adversaries. The Africans have made a crucial mistake in rioting way too early, to fail to address this huge problem will only compel the French to deal with it later--but at a much greater disadvantage. Under what circumstances would lethal force be appropriate?
271 posted on 11/08/2005 5:44:44 PM PST by giobruno
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To: singfreedom

The Frog-Hop response to the anarchy in France makes FEMA-Katrina seem like the Twist........


272 posted on 11/08/2005 5:48:25 PM PST by crowman
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To: ARealMothersSonForever
If an 11 or 12 year old is committing violence against another then shooting that 11 or 12 year old is appropriate.

273 posted on 11/08/2005 5:49:48 PM PST by I see my hands (Until this civil war heats up.. Have a nice day.)
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To: Republicain

I wonder if the old Cathedral in Strasbourg still has that weekly Jarre and Pink Floyd lightshow?

Nice town...sorry to hear about problems.

even in little Alsace villages like Colmar?

or just larger cities?


274 posted on 11/08/2005 5:50:17 PM PST by wardaddy
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To: Simmy2.5
How goes "the nightly Paris car-B-Q"? (Aussie pundit Tim Blair via Mark Steyn)
275 posted on 11/08/2005 5:51:09 PM PST by NonValueAdded ("To the terrorists, the media is a vital force multiplier" Brig. Gen. Donald Alston (USAF) 10/31/05)
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To: Republicain

Thank you for your perspective. You will take note of some FReepers here that will take exception to some of your statements. I myself will even criticize some of the French government policy. To blame individual French citizens is not appropriate. I wish you the best.


276 posted on 11/08/2005 5:52:01 PM PST by ARealMothersSonForever (Proud to be named as a member of the Radical Right Wing. Vast Right Wing got old.)
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Comment #277 Removed by Moderator

To: ARealMothersSonForever

You don't know me and I dont know you. All I did was make an observation. It is pathetic, that ALL the leaders, if they have any, in these communities in Paris would allow THEIR children to coninue this after lets say the 5th or 6th night.

Now, let's put this all into context and as someone said earlier it's a "win-win" situation for the insurrectionist. And as you can see today with the French PM offering up their surrender terms to the "communities" what message does this send and how dangerous is that? Now, we REWARD bad behavior??

Scenario:

Let's unleash all the children in...pick a country...and say after a week of this they ASK, no demand to give up up X. Now let's say X can be anything. And a year goes by and they do it again. How many X's are you willing to give up?


278 posted on 11/08/2005 5:52:28 PM PST by Ray66
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To: outofhere2

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1518396/posts?page=1

Restive France Declares State of Emergency.


RESTIVE? WTF DOES THAT MEAN?


279 posted on 11/08/2005 5:53:20 PM PST by Fred Nerks (The media isn't mainstream it's the ENEMY! The enemy enemy ENEMEDIA!)
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To: Simmy2.5

Remind me about how much more civilized they are in Europe.


280 posted on 11/08/2005 5:54:31 PM PST by SmithL (There are a lot of people that hate Bush more than they hate terrorists)
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