Posted on 10/29/2005 7:25:40 AM PDT by vrwc0915
It appears there is hard evidence to prove that employers are using the H-1B visa program to hire cheap labor; that is, to pay lower wages than the national average for programming jobs.
According to “The Bottom of the Pay Scale: Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers — F.Y. 2004,” a report by Programmers Guild board member John Miano, non-U.S. citizens working in the United States on an H-1B visa are paid “significantly less than their American counterparts.” How much less? “On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state.”
Miano based his report on OES (Occupational Employment Statistics) data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics which estimates wages for the entire country by state and metropolitan area. The report’s H-1B wage data came from the U.S. Department of Labor’s H-1B disclosure Web site.
Miano went out of his way to be balanced, and whenever possible he gave the benefit of the doubt to the employer. For example, he used OES data from 2003 because this is the wage information that would have been available to the employers when filing an LCA (labor condition application).
Miano had some difficulty matching OES job codes with LCA job titles, which employers typically create. Where both the OES and the LCA listed a job as “programmer/analyst,” Miano took the conservative approach of assuming that the LCA was describing a programmer, a job title that typically earns a lower wage than a systems analyst.
Nonetheless, Miano’s report shows that wages paid to H-1B workers in computer programming occupations had a mean salary of $52,312, while the OES mean was $67,700; a difference of $15,388. The report also lists the OES median salary as $65,003, or $12,691 higher than the H-1B median.
When you look at computer job titles by state, California has one of the biggest differentials between OES salaries and H-1B salaries. The average salary for a programmer in California is $73,960, according to the OES. The average salary paid to an H-1B visa worker for the same job is $53,387; a difference of $20,573.
Here are some other interesting national wage comparisons: The mean salary of an H-1B computer scientist is $78,169, versus $90,146 according to the OES. For an H-1B network analyst, the mean salary is $55,358, versus the OES mean salary of $64,799. And for the title “system administrator,” there was a $17,478 difference in salary between the H-1B mean and the OES mean.
H-1B visa workers were also concentrated at the bottom end of the wage scale, with the majority of H-1B visa workers in the 10-24 percentile range. “That means the largest concentration of H-1B workers make less than [the] highest 75 percent of the U.S. wage earners,” the report notes.
While it would be difficult to prove that any one particular employer is hiring foreign workers to pay less, the statistics show us that, for whatever reason, this is exactly what is happening on a nationwide basis. Miano says lobbyists will admit that a small number of companies are abusing the H-1B program, but what he has found in this research is that almost everyone is abusing it.
“Abuse is by far more common than legitimate use,” he says.
That has nothing to do with the issue. The company must demonstrate the pool of candidates. If there are citizens that applied for the job in sufficient numbers --- prior to offers and salary negotiations --- the visa is denied. In addition, there are great costs in procuring the visa, and the supply is unreliable.
So lets be honest about what an H-1B visa is as it is currently being used.
As I said earlier, it is used in many more areas than IT. In the very least, then, argue that it is misused in that one field. Otherwise it is mere whining and propaganda: to secure jobs in one field, you want the law to be changed --- at the cost of great disadvantages in many other areas --- for all employers.
Also, as I said repeatedly, you can at best argue for problems existing in one industry and in one geographic area. (Actually, you personally are a rare exception: you post is very scientifically worded, without over-reaching). H1-G visas are used in other areas, such as to hire faculty in major universities. Since "displaced" faculty does not whine, one simply does not hear about that use of visas. But it does exists and serves a major purpose.
Even from personal experience I noticed an increase in beef prices. But that may be attributable (and was attributed by some) to the low-carb craze, which increases demand.
The overall inflation, which includes food, is very low. And the food component also experiences low inflation. Spikes here and there are uninformative.
I agree. But this does not mean that YOUR party should resort to pandering. Fascists did that and won the elections, but that brought incredible misery to the German people and the rest of the world. Pandering can win, but that does not mean that Republicans should adopt it.
Moreover, pandering works only when the public is uninformed. And our public is very much uninformed: even the conservatives on this board are largely ignorant about functioning of the markets and have a huge anti-corporate bias. They may be conservatives in everything else, but when it comes to economics many are straight, run-of-the-mull socialists. That is why pandering may work in 2008.
But the answer is not to compete on who will do more of it: conservatives at least should know how their country works and what has made it prosperous.
This is just factually incorrect. There is absolutely no-one in the federal government who is doing this type of verification. Call the Department of Labor and ask them when the last time they did this type of investigation.
As I said earlier, it is used in many more areas than IT. In the very least, then, argue that it is misused in that one field.
The fact is that the majority of H-1B visas are for engineering jobs. And I can attest to the fact that it is misused in that field. Also, the major proponents or lobbies who push for increasing the quotas are IT companies.
I find your use of calling people whiners because they do not agree with you to be rather imature.
If you want to offer God thanks than do so, but to use his name in vain will only fuel his wrath against you even if you (gasp) try to hide the fact by leaving out the o.
You've been previously arguing the law itself; this statement is about enforcement. I do not claim to have data on the extent of enforcement therefore have no opinion on the matter. If what you say is true, then this is indeed wrong, and strict enforcement is necessary.
"The fact is that the majority of H-1B visas are for engineering jobs. And I can attest to the fact that it is misused in that field. Also, the major proponents or lobbies who push for increasing the quotas are IT companies."
This is correct. Some large "American" companies now resemble foreign nations even while they are still located on US soil. I know this from first hand experience, not some article. The madness has to end or the repercussions will be disastrous for all involved.
Also the oligarchy managed to avoid paying taxes. Tax burden was on the working people/farmers. When Turks were taking Constantinople average people were not willing to fight. Only few thousand paid troops were available for the defence.
The point that I have been arguing and the heart of the article being discussed is precisely about the abuse of the H-1B visa's. A law without enforcement is a joke not a law.
Then tax the foreign goods, and make it competitive with the US goods.
I'd rather Americans have jobs.
I agree with you: if that were the reason for my use of that word, that would be both immature and wrong. But the reason is altogether different, and it is not based on this particular thread. Rather, it is based on what I have observed since the IT bubble, and the salaries in that sector, collapsed. The constant calls for government intervention, terrible accusations of all employers, etc. --- all to keep inflated by shortage salaries that we, the rest of Americans paid for decades in higher product prices and lower stock prices. In the 1990s, when a kid with no college education could make $150,000/year just because he knew some recent version of Java, this reached the level of insanity. The markets worked in their favor practically since computers were invented. Now that the same markets are ending the party, all of a sudden employers are traitors and Bush should adopt socialist measures. That's whining. Debates and opinions have nothing to do with it.
I did.
I agree completely with what you say. The question is, what is one to do about this situation? Most of the opinions I've heard --- if not on this thread, then on many previous ones --- is to terminate the practice of issuing such visas. "Any employer that uses them is a traitor." That is both incorrect and wrong.
If you argue for better enforcement, I am with you 100%.
Conservatives understand that protectionism was the foundation of this nation's prosperity.
Pandering. What an elitist mindset. If the man in the street thinks that good jobs are worth more than cheap imports, who are you to tell him that he is wrong ? Who are you to decide that the interests of those who live off of finance and investments are worth more than those who live off of paychecks ?
This is statistical evidence of illegal activity by these hiring companies. A few smart class action lawyers could make a killing using these statistics.
That well may have been true in those times. The world and the country were much different then,
The truth is, nobody knows how to implement protectionism without creating distortions; that is, without one group of Americans being subsidized by the rest of Americans.
Pandering. What an elitist mindset.
Wow! What a connection! YOu previous posts were strongly worded, which I don't mind, but at least logical.
If the man in the street thinks that good jobs are worth more than cheap imports,
Well, the devil here is in the details: what does "good job" mean? If I think my services are worth $1M/year, say --- that is what I, a man in the street, think a good job is --- should it be provided to me? By whom?
who are you to tell him that he is wrong ? Who are you to decide that the interests of those who live off of finance and investments are worth more than those who live off of paychecks ?
Where have I made such statements? You are arguing against a straw man. Congratulations --- you appear to be winning!
I am not telling anyone what good jobs are, and I do not weight the importance of income from securities vs. income from employment. All I ever said was that it is the markets that determine what a good job is, and it is the markets that determined who gets what from securities (which, incidentally, includes most Americans).
Now, one can run on a platform such as "Hell with the markets; I will guarantee you your `good jobs;' I will deliver good life." That is pandering: such person may entice ignorant public and win, but he will never deliver on the provide: jobs are not his to give; no government has ever created jobs.
That's all I said.
You appear to be arguing now for argument's sake and resort yo putting words in my mouth. I am not interested in playing games.
Have a good night, Sam.
I completely agree, as I said in #195.
But I was thinking of the Turks. Various Byzantine nobles kept importing Turkish mercenaries to fight their wars with each other and to work their land. By the time the Turks rolled up to Constantinople with their cannons, the countryside was already filled with Turks. Ultimately, there weren't enough Byzantines left to fight the Turks or hold on to their territory so they vanished to the conquerers, despite their wealth and long history of achievements.
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