Posted on 10/26/2005 3:54:15 PM PDT by Jo Nuvark
Could we stop some of the abuse from illegal aliens by converting from an income tax that illegals avoid, to a federal sales tax that illegals cannot avoid?
Many illegals from Mexico pay no taxes and send much of their income home. A federal sales tax could discourage the abuses and possibly stem the human flood.
That's not to say there won't be fraud - there already is.
You can't get a PRE-BATE check without a Social Security Number.
So do I!
My point is that tax avoidance is not their primary motive for coming here.
Making it less profitable to come here would be insufficient to stop the tide unless there were some better alternative at home, which at present there is not.
Children don't pay taxes.
Hmmmm, They pay retail sales taxes the same as anyone else does, whether here legal or otherwise. If any individual buys something, sales taxes are collected regardless of age or anyother condition.
There are places in town where $30 will get you a valid Social Security number.
Guaranteed not ones that will get a check worth more than $30 sent to your address every month.
[..My point is that tax avoidance is not their primary motive for coming here...]
You are correct. My point is by paying taxes, they will be carrying their portion of the load. And, some will be discouraged from coming because it won't be as profitable.
On the other hand, I think I'm being convinced the flood of illegals will remain until Mexico becomes a more appealing place to live.
We should support the Fair Tax on its merits....this isnt one of them
Once you begin arguing for teh fair Tax based on illegal immigration, youve lost the economic argument and are now grasping at straws.
1) They do now and they are collapsing the treasury of several southwestern states.
2) At a combined 23% federal and state consumption tax rate each child would have to spend $44,000 per year just to cover the cost of their public education. That translates to about $100,000 per year in taxable purchases for a typical California immigrant family just to cover the cost of the children's education.
Consumption taxes are indeed one way to force the poor to pay their fair share but it doesn't even come close to offsetting the huge economic drain unregulated immigration has imposed on our society. Use taxes would be much more effective but they run counter to our culture and are regressive if the playing field is level.
A short treatise in an earlier reply on this thread outlined why taxes won't solve the problem. Tax structures redistribute wealth and the current system benefits the wealthy at the expense of the middle class using the illegal immigrant as a tool. Relying more heavily on a consumption tax will move some of that burden from the middle to the lower class but it wont address the root problem or stem the bleeding from government treasuries.
[...We should support the Fair Tax on its merits...]
I agree with you. I have a problem with ANYONE who doesn't pay their portion in taxes. It simply occurred to me that the brilliant Fair Tax would serendipidously correct a problem we have with undocumented workers.
Perhaps it won't stop the flood, but a revenue base will stop the free fall.
Unless the prostitute sends in the sales tax on the services she provides, the sales tax does nothing to capture the underground economy.
Oh no, some poor downtrodden migrant worker not paying taxes would sue for discrimination or something like that.
This discussion has been a pleasure. Thank you for engaging.
Under our income tax, the prostitute only pays a portion of her taxes (the portion embedded in prices - which we all pay). Under our income tax, the prostitute avoids paying income tax and avoids paying payroll tax. Today, the remainder of the prostitute's tax burden must be paid by the rest of us - increasing the burden on the legal economy.
But under the nrst, the prostitute pays her full share of taxes when she buys stuff. So under the nrst, she doesn't avoid any taxes. So under an nrst, the rest of us do NOT have to pay more to cover her taxes. So under the nrst, the legal economy is not forced to pay more for her.
OK, let's consider that. The illegals who provide lawn services to homeowners in my neighborhood currently don't pay income tax for their economic activity. If the system changed, I seriously doubt that the illegals would collect and remit a sales tax on their economic activity.
You see, under either system (an income tax or a sales tax), it is the producers that must remit the tax, not the consumers. Changing the statute does not change that fact. If you have dishonest producers (that is, producers that use illegal labor for example), it seems quite disingenuous to claim that a sales tax will suddenly make them honest.
She pays her full share when she buys stuff today. All the embedded taxes are there paid by the end consumer. The end consumer pays it all today, just like they would under the sales tax. Under the sales tax the prostitute would avoid paying $23 tax on every $100 she collects. Probably more than she avoids today, unless she is a real high class pro taking in 6 figures. There is no arguement on this point. To claim any kind of an advantage is disingenuous, but after explaining this point 1000 times I know it will get no where.
"The huge cost of illegal immigration is the cost of the social safety net the US provides to the progeny of illegal immigrants over successive generations , chiefly education and health care."
And if an illegal should purchase goods today, they pay all the embedded taxes in the price of the goods. Unless the fair tax actually figures out how to tax the illegals for the services they provide, their argument is pure BS. But don't expect one of them to agree. You can explain it every way conceivable, but as long as it is in their sales tax talking points, you won't find one of them that will admit it. It is embarrassing to have to rehash the same obviious points on every thread with these guys.
How? You pay an illegal $1000 for some service, are they going to remit a tax? When they purchase goods legally today, they already pay embedded taxes in the costs of the goods to cover all the taxes of every employee and business owner in the chain. Besides a good portion of that money is going to be sent back to Mexico anyways, so neither system could capture it.
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