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Could Operation Sealion have succeeded(Planned Invasion of Britain by Germany)

Posted on 10/20/2005 5:56:08 AM PDT by tonycavanagh

The English Channel meant that these Blitzkrieg tactics could not be continued against Britain. Hitler had great respect for Britain's navy and airforce and feared that his forces would suffer heavy casualties in any invasion attempt. Hitler, who had not seen the sea until he was over forty, lacked confidence when it came to naval warfare. As he told his naval commander-in-chief: "On land I am a hero. At sea I am a coward."

At this stage Hitler still hoped that Britain would change sides or at least accept German domination of Europe.

Immediately after the defeat of France in June 1940, Adolf Hitler ordered his generals to organize the invasion of Britain. The invasion plan was given the code name Operation Sealion. The objective was to land 160,000 German soldiers along a forty-mile coastal stretch of south-east England.

Within a few weeks the Germans had assembled a large armada of vessels, including 2,000 barges in German, Belgian and French harbours. However, Hitler's generals were very worried about the damage that the Royal Air Force could inflict on the German Army during the invasion. Hitler therefore agreed to their request that the invasion should be postponed until the British airforce had been destroyed.

On the 12th August the German airforce began its mass bomber attacks on British radar stations, aircraft factories and fighter airfields. During these raids radar stations and airfields were badly damaged. This attack was followed by daily raids on Britain. This was the beginning of what became known as the Battle of Britain.

Although plans for an invasion of Britain were drawn up Adolf Hitler was never very enthusiastic about them and they were eventually abandoned on October 12, 1940. Instead, Hitler attempted to batter Britain into submission by organising a sustained night-bombing campaign.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: alternatehistory; history; wwii
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To: PzLdr
re :In one of the alternate history books written on the subject, the Germans used minefields on both flanks of the landing zone to slow down the Royal Navy.

I read that book, it was called Invasion.

The Problem with that book was that the Germans had all the luck everything they planned went right, everything the British did went wrong.

If you look at Dunkirk the same time frame, the Luftwaffe had total control of the air, and yet they only sank six British warships, warships that were stationary.

In an invasion, its not only important to get the initial assault ashore but the follow up waves as well as supplies.

The German Navy did not have enough mine laying capacity and the Royal Navy would not of sat back and watched then lay those mines, they would off attacked sinking those mine laying ships therefore reducing the line laying capability of the Germans further.

Also although the British Army had been decimated they were not fully out of the equation, they did have some reserve troops in place the Canadian Division, and Indian brigade as well as a assortment of British units.

That is why the army wanted a broader front to be able to land more troops in the initial assault, a small beach head as the German Navy would of wanted would of been easier to contain, it would also of meant a concentration of the German supply line a better target for the RAF Bombers

The initial assault would of been mainly infantry as the German s did not have any LTC, although some of the panzer's were equipped to go through water how many would of made it to the beach would of been questionable.

Also the British plan was if need be, to withdraw air strength from the south, build up in the north and use the RAF when the invasion started.

Every German ship sunk would be one less to carry more troops and supply's.

As for the Fallschirmjaeger there numbers had been decimated in the battle for Norway and the lowlands and were understrength.

The German Navy would of lost control of the channel by the second day third at least , leaving there troops confined to a small bridgehead with no chance of supply.

Goering would of promised to supply them by air, but as in Stalingrad would of been a failed effort.

21 posted on 10/20/2005 8:19:00 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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To: Ed Thomas

Thanks for the links. Interesting stuff.


22 posted on 10/20/2005 8:19:52 AM PDT by Steelerfan
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To: Steelerfan
I read that book.

The Problem with that book was that the Germans had all the luck everything they planned went right, everything the British did went wrong.

If you look at Dunkirk the same time frame, the Luftwaffe had total control of the air, and yet they only sank six British warships, warships that were stationary.

In an invasion, its not only important to get the initial assault ashore but the follow up waves as well as supplies.

The German Navy did not have enough mine laying capacity and the Royal Navy would not of sat back and watched then lay those mines, they would off attacked sinking those mine laying ships therefore reducing the line laying capability of the Germans further.

Also although the British Army had been decimated they were not fully out of the equation, they did have some reserve troops in place the Canadian Division, and Indian brigade as well as a assortment of British units.

That is why the army wanted a broader front to be able to land more troops in the initial assault, a small beach head as the German Navy would of wanted would of been easier to contain, it would also of meant a concentration of the German supply line a better target for the RAF Bombers

The initial assault would of been mainly infantry as the German s did not have any LTC, although some of the panzer's were equipped to go through water how many would of made it to the beach would of been questionable.

Also the British plan was if need be, to withdraw air strength from the south, build up in the north and use the RAF when the invasion started.

Every German ship sunk would be one less to carry more troops and supply's.

As for the Fallschirmjaeger there numbers had been decimated in the battle for Norway and the lowlands and were understrength.

The German Navy would of lost control of the channel by the second day third at least , leaving there troops confined to a small bridgehead with no chance of supply.

Goering would of promised to supply them by air, but as in Stalingrad would of been a failed effort.

23 posted on 10/20/2005 8:21:13 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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To: Redleg Duke
re :I have difficutly with those who say that the Kreigsmarine couldn't have handled the Royal Navy.

At the time the German Navy had lost 40% of there destroyer forces the best ships for escorting a planned Invasion ship.

The Royal Navy would not of had to use there heavies, they would of mainly used destroyers and light cruisers, fast and nimble.

The E-Boat was a hit and run type ship against small targets while they may have been able to take on MBTs how effective would they have been against a force destroyers and light cruiser bearing down on the invasion fleet.

As for the U-Boats there were not that many operational at the time and most were on Atlantic duty.

Concentrating them in the channel would of made them easy targets for Royal Navy ASW units.

As for the Luftwaffe, they did not have much experience in Navel battles or against ships.

During Dunkirk, despite have air superiority and attacking stationary ships, concentrated in a small area they only succeeded sinking six destroyers, how effective would they have been against moving zig zagging targets.

As for the mine field I don't think the Royal Navy would of sat back and allowed the Germans to lay those mines.

They would of gone after the mine layers.

24 posted on 10/20/2005 8:33:02 AM PDT by tonycavanagh
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To: tonycavanagh
The only way that Germany would have had a fighting chance against England would have been to "liberate" Northern Ireland and use it as an advanced base for submarine and air operations.

This strategy would require quite a bit of time. It wouldn't have worked unless the Germans changed their "enigma" codes since the Brits could track their message traffic.

The Germans would need aircraft carriers instead of battleships.

The Germans would have needed 4 engine bombers and two engine fighters (or jet powered fighters).

Politically, Hitler could have played against the Catholic/Protestant division even though I doubt the Protestant Germans would have agreed with such politics if they were domestic. But since Hitler would have used it overseas, I'm sure most Wermacht officers would have seen through the religion political freedom rhetoric. The Irish would probably have been moved enough to stay out of the German/English conflict.

Invading N. Ireland may keep the Irish from running counter attacks and sabatoge if Hitler used a very German Catholic Division and advertised that to the Irish.

Why doesn't this work? Hitler didn't like the Catholic Church that much to have put so much "faith" into such a division...even with the massive evidence of religious division in Ireland's history.

The English guarded their coast very very well. It would have been a very desperate move to wheel around England or Scotland to close her off. The odds are a long shot. But Germany would have needed at least 2 aircraft carriers and all of her submarines running protection for the invasion fleet. Even so, England would have thrown everything she had at her...including her Irish soldiers.

Germany made the same mistake in WW2 as she did in WW1. She thought that England would see a Germanic identity similar to the Germans'. By WW2, England and Ireland shared a more friendlier history than pre-WW1.
25 posted on 10/20/2005 8:38:56 AM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: Redleg Duke

It's fun to discuss alternate history. If Operation Barbarossa had begun on schedule, instead of being delayed six weeks by the Balkans uprising, it is possible that the German Army might have taken Moscow and greatly weakened if not entirely defeated Russia. Then they might have turned west toward Britain with a more secure Eastern Front. Russia was completely disorganized during the early part of Barbarossa - Stalin was killing generals who had "failed", etc.


26 posted on 10/20/2005 8:40:29 AM PDT by karnage (Go Sox)
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To: PzLdr
In one of the alternate history books written on the subject, the Germans used minefields on both flanks of the landing zone to slow down the Royal Navy, and Fallschirmjaeger and Mountain troops to make the initial assault, followed up by a couple of Panzer Divisions [one with Rommel as GC], and some mechanized infantry.

Where did you see that order of battle? Everything I've seen indicates that the Plan only allowed for a single panzer division (with light tanks), plus one panzer grenadier division. Perhaps there was a muscled-up plan that I haven't seen, but any such plan would presume even more sea-lift and would therefore have been less likely.

The Royal Navy would have made a max effort against the landing beaches. A fleet does you little good if you are facing defeat on land -- ask the French. I'm sure that the RN would have run any minefield sown by the Kriegsmarine and risked the damage. Heavy fleet units would probably have sailed around Ireland & approached the landing beaches from beyond the range of Luftwaffe fighters. Running the channel would have exposed the fleet to air, mine & torpedo attack.

27 posted on 10/20/2005 8:42:10 AM PDT by Tallguy
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To: karnage

"Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it!"


28 posted on 10/20/2005 9:12:32 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (9/11 - "WE WILL NEVER FORGET!")
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To: tonycavanagh

Agree with all of that. The book assumes that because the British forces were not mechanized (which was mostly true at that point) and with German air supperiority the Germans could build up an armored force and punch out of the bridgehead before the British could get together sufficient forces to seal it off. Given how much trouble the Allies had in getting armored forces across the Channel in 44 I think that is unlikely. Even if they could, as you point out they would need a steady supply of fuel and ammo. I do not see how they could have accomplished that. The book sort of sidesteps these issues by having the Germans find significant quantities of fuel ashore (maybe, I do not know how well executed any destruction plans would have been) but really doesn't address how the Germans coudl effectively move large quantities of other supplies across the beach.

Anyway, it is always fun to speculate.


29 posted on 10/20/2005 9:21:24 AM PDT by Steelerfan
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To: SaltyJoe

An interesting idea Joe but not really feasible. I've a French friend who feels the Germans should have invaded down from northern Scotland, this despite the fact he was fully aware of the mountainous remote nature of that country.

To have invaded Northern Ireland would have involved the Kriegsmarine sailing all the way from northern France and the Low Countries, towing Rhine barges full of seasick soldiers, around the wild Atlantic coast of western Ireland, perhaps five days sailing, subject at all time to the attention of fifty or so Royal Navy destroyers, a Spanish Armada in reverse if you like. And when they got there where would they land? Most of Ulster's coastline is rugged cliffs, there is one broad beach at Magilligan in county Derry (it was used as a training beach for US forces prior to D-Day) but it is within twenty minutes sailing of the Royal Navy base in Derry and two minutes flying from Ballykelly and Eglinton RAF bases.

It is an apochryphal comment of Churchill that after Dunkirk the only armed, disciplined force in the UK was the Ulster Special Constabulary (the [in]famous B Specials) a reserve and armed police force, ok not much, but a darn sight better than the Dad's Army in England at the time, they were mostly veterans of WWI and the 1919-22 guerilla campaign. Having defeated them the Germans would have had to cross to the mainland, what on car ferries? They would have landed either in Liverpool or Glasgow where they would have been met by the excellent Canadian division. No, Ireland North or South was not ripe for the plucking, they mightn't like the Brits but they wouldn't have welcomed the Nazis either (well the IRA might have but they were a small minority and De Valera would have wiped them out if they tried any funny business).

Sea Lion was never a real threat, but it's easy for us to say that now in hindsight, but it sure as hell didn't look that way to the British in the summer and autumn of 1940, it is a magnificent tribute to them that they never considered surrendering to the Nazis and were prepared to accept oblivion rather than Nazi serfdom, unlike another country only 28 miles across the Channel.


30 posted on 10/20/2005 9:23:56 AM PDT by PotatoHeadMick
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To: Little Ray; tonycavanagh
Don't forget that Americans copied Japan amphibious designs. We can give Higgins credit for his his war winning boat, but the Japanese had pushed the envelope of invention too. If they had shared their technology with the Germans, there might have been a different outcome for Sea Lion.

I think it would still have failed because of the English code breaking and lack of German aircraft carriers to fly deep cover for their armada. ME-109s could only stay in England's air space for a very short duration, and shorter if that meant dog fighting. As soon as their bingo light went off, they had to head home fast.
31 posted on 10/20/2005 9:25:36 AM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: tonycavanagh

Hitler's life aim was to defeat Soviet Communism and once he realised that GB wasn't going to be easy to subjugate he turned East.


32 posted on 10/20/2005 9:30:30 AM PDT by Semper Paratus
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To: tonycavanagh
Aw, piece of cake. The Wehrmacht would have rolled through the place like a tide unless it was a weekend and there were Manchester United fans in the pubs.

On a more serious note, so much would have to have gone right for the Germans that I don't see it happening. Had they (1) continued their attacks on the RAF radar towers and fighter fields for another month instead of diverting resources to terror attacks on the cities, (2) put a major effort into developing cross-channel marine capabilities that could withstand the weather and carry their panzers and heavy artillery, (3) increased submarine warfare against RN units instead of merchant shipping, except perhaps for oilers, (4) found a period of weather mild enough to effect the landings (we lucked out in '44 and only barely then), (5) dedicated more than 160,000 troops to take the island (twice that IMHO and probably more - look, for example, at what happened at Stalingrad), and (6) succeeded in isolating Great Britain diplomatically from U.S. intervention, then maybe. Otherwise I think it would have been one of the bitterest, bloodiest battles in history and it's doubtful if many Germans would have left the island alive.

33 posted on 10/20/2005 9:45:20 AM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: PotatoHeadMick
It is feasible, but not for those running the program back in 1940.

Recall that Crete was taken by Germany via paratroops. It was costly and Hitler swore never to do it again. German paratroops were top shelf. Landing via beach boats is suicidal, but it's plausible if you have regular infantry in unmarked merchant vessels (or mock US styled merchant ships if possible). Quite a few troops and vehicles can be hidden in a ship.

It would be an enormous effort, but what amphibious invasion isn't?

Like I said before, Germany needed aircraft carriers to extend fighter's flight range. They had only one (that I know of) whose hull was laid but never left the shipyard.

The German Admirals still believed in battle ships or even smaller pocket battle ships. The best these fast pocket battleships could be for the German war effort was to draw the rest of the Royal Navy away from the landing zone.

Every sub that the Germans had would have to be used for the invasion to screen the task force. Subs and torpedo boats would have had to intercept and/or stay on station and shut down any threat to the N. Ireland beach head (pretty much improbably, but not impossible). Paratroops would have overcome the hardened defenses to give opportunity for the mock merchant ships to deploy their hidden infantry and light vehicles.

Fog and darkness would work greatly to enhance stealth and surprise.

The German Navy could have employed the same ruse as the Allied false landing at Calais, France.

German bombers would drop dummy paratroopers with noise makers at key locations in Southern England. The RAF would chase off the ruse.

Sleeper cell saboteurs would set off explosives and conduct assassinations, cut power and communications lines, etc.

Whatever larger capital ships the Germans wanted to risk could have made a mad dash to the shortest point across the channel and pummeled military targets, radar stations, airfields, and bridges and counter Royal Navy men of war. From that assault, the capital ships running fire support for the N. Ireland invasion would peel off and protect the harbors where the mock merchant (Q-ships) ships were deploying.

England would be split 3 ways:

1. Chasing down the Graf Spee,
2. Defending their Southeast coastline and London from the seemingly obvious threat from the Channel,
3. The main effort in N. Ireland.

What the Irish would do post-invasion would have been up to Hitler's propaganda machine and how well the Irish viewed England's centuries of dominance.

What you say of Irish fighting Germans is very interesting, and I tend to agree with you. But there's always the doubt that migrating Irish soldiers COULD have turned and listen to their own hearts and acted upon the long awaited patriotism they stifled in serving their English masters. The Irish have been grand professional soldiers, but what would have been if they had the opportunity to be their own soldiers. The IRA certainly would have made a mess in supporting a N. Ireland invasion.

It's probably better for Ireland that this never happened. I'm sure that they would be ruling the world by now if it did. (damn whiskey and beer got the better of 'em)
34 posted on 10/20/2005 9:57:19 AM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: tonycavanagh

No.


35 posted on 10/20/2005 10:04:56 AM PDT by johnny7 (“What now? Let me tell you what now.”)
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To: SaltyJoe

I don't think Higgens copied Jap designs. The Higgens Boat Company had a history of innovative designs for working boats well before it ever got into landing craft. Their first landing craft were made by sawing off the bow and adding a ramp... In fact they had z production line doing that for a while until they got the production line for for building the boat with the ramp going.


36 posted on 10/20/2005 10:05:15 AM PDT by Little Ray (I'm a reactionary, hirsute, gun-owning, knuckle dragging, Christian Neanderthal and proud of it!)
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To: Little Ray
Images of Japanese amphibious vehicles:

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=japanese%20amphibious%20vehicles&sa=N&tab=wi

You're right that Higgens didn't copy the Japanese. But the Japanese were just as innovative in the art of Amphibious Warfare. They were doing it longer than we. We out did them.
37 posted on 10/20/2005 10:28:21 AM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: SaltyJoe

Here's another great page:

http://mailer.fsu.edu/~akirk/tanks/japan/japan-amphibvehicles.html


38 posted on 10/20/2005 10:29:27 AM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: Little Ray

Just for reference:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Japanese_WW2_Weapons#Army_vessels


39 posted on 10/20/2005 10:34:14 AM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: tonycavanagh

My grandmother lived in southern England. When I was a kid (1960's) there was still some evidence near her house of preparations for an invasion. On a road in back of her garden there were some big concrete barriers. IIRC she said that they were intended to stop tanks. After the war they were too heavy to remove and were just pushed onto the shoulder. At the point where a main road crossed a rail line, there was a low concrete building that was some sort of guard house or bunker. We played inside a few times. None of this is so important but it made a big impression on my imagination at the time.


40 posted on 10/20/2005 11:44:42 AM PDT by wideminded
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