St. Louis Cardinals @ Houston Astros -- NLCS Game 5 LIVE THREAD

Fox TV | 10/17/05 | A Killer Bee

[Diddle E. Squat]

Bottom of 2nd, 1-0 Astro lead, good game with baserunners and a great tag out at the plate by the Cardinal catcher.

[ElTianti]

Clemens signed a ball for me in ’87 at Memorial Stadium, so I’m a big fan of the Rocket.

Go Astros!

[GraniteStateConservative]

If, instead of rolling the ball to the mound, which allowed AJP to run to first, if the Angels catcher had tossed the ball into the stands, and the fans held it, then the runner could have gone all the way home...that's how I read the rule..is that correct?..Man, could you imagine that pic...a fan holding the ball, laughing at the A's player.which AJP walks around the bases...Or, there could have been a CWS fan next to him, who punched the guy in the mouth, grabbed the ball, and threw it back onto the field..

Maybe not, though I'm not sure.

I recall when Trot Nixon threw the 2nd out ball into the stands on May 17, 2003. I don't recall if it was thrown back or not, which is key in your scenario, but I think the kid did not throw it back. Trot looked over at the ump when he realized his mistake and the ump called time, which, I guess, made the play dead. They may have just issued a ground rule double kind of deal on that play.

This is what happened, though.

1st out.
Molina singled to center.
Davanon singled to left, B Molina to second.
Eckstein flied out to right for 2nd out, and Trot Nixon tosses the ball.
Molina and Davanon take two bases, scoring Molina.
Eventually, after scoring more runs in a traditional fashion, Glaus strikes out for the 3rd out.

[Peace will be here soon]

I don`t think its over by any means. Sure, that Pujols homerun was a big blow to the Astros, but a knockout blow? I am not going to say that. But I am glad it happened.

It will no doubt play in the minds of the Astros. The fact that they were up 3-2 last year coming back to St.Louis and lost the series also is still fresh in their heads I`m sure. Game 6 had Edmonds blast in extra innings to win the game. I am sure they will be playing that on the jumbotron a few times.

But remember, the Cards were up 3-1 over Atlanta in 1996 NLCS and lost the series. So like the saying goes, it ain`t over till its over.

By the way, I was at Game 6 in the 1996 World Series. : ) I was also at Game 4 last year to see the Cards go down in flames. But it was still exciting to see the Red Sox win, in a weird way.

Go Cards !!

[SCALEMAN]

I haven't researched the rules yet, but I concur with you. I used to ump some and without getting out the 'Book', I would probably rule a dead ball and award a base to all runners. Whether the ball is thrown into the stands accidentially or on purpose (but mistakenly) shouldn't matter. A wild throw to first that ends up in the stands is ruled a dead ball and the runners advance. On the other hand the Umps have to have some judgement, and must assign intent on the part of the player. I could see an instance where a player intentionally throws a ball into the stands to create a dead ball because he has no hope of getting a runner(s) out.

[Not A Snowbird]

Is this a replay of the Angels/Red Sox? Angeles up 3 games to 1, down to the last strike. Sox win in extra innings and take the next two to break their hearts.

I was at that game in 1986. If the Astros react the same way the Angels did, well...

[doug from upland]

I was just sick watching it unfold. I had the same feeling and posted it just before the 3-run shot.

[Cyclopean Squid]

Despite everything, the 'Stros are still leading the series. We have 2 chances left. Roy-O on the mound tomorrow, and Rajah on Thursday. If the Cards beat both of them, well then, they most certainly deserve to advance to the Fall Classic. I'm not going to pretend that I'm chipper, but I do shelter hope. This is another chance for more great October baseball.

I've been saying that as an Astros fan, I am crestfallen. As a baseball fan, I am excited. Let's hope that by the denoument I can be jubilant as both.

[untenured]

I was just sick watching it unfold. I had the same feeling and posted it just before the 3-run shot.

To some of us it has the stick stench of familiarity. Put the Pujols home run in the file. You know, the one with with Jesse Orosco and Kevin Bass and the tying run on second, with Nolan Ryan giving up a 3-run lead in the 8th of game five, with Walt Weiss masquerading as Superman for one play with the bases loaded and no one out in Game 3, with taking out Wade Miller against Atlanta for no reason other than panic, with Fred Brocklander preposterously calling Craig Reynolds out, with Jim Edmonds applying the mortal blows with his bat in Game 6 and his glove in Game 7, with "the oldest franchise never to have gone to a World Series," with Mike Scott looking on helplessly as Bob Knepper collapsed, with taking the first two from the Reds but not the third to complete the blowing of a ten-game lead, with losing three straight games to the Dodgers to lose the series after being up 2-0, with losing three out of four to a cellar-dwelling Milwaukee on the last weekend, with Kevin Brown striking out 16 to top Randy Johnson at nearly the top of his form. File it all in the Astros Agony File, which never seems to be full.

I sat there and watched it all as the first two guys went down in the ninth feebly. I watched them run the Agony highlights from previous years, the announcers so sure that it was going to be different this time. I saw it all collapse in a 1000-foot home run off a slider that didn't slide and that, if history is any guide, may permanently cripple Brad Lidge's career. I saw it all, knew somehow after Eckstein poked that grounder through the infield that while the details this time would be different it had to end more or less like that, and yet was naively stunned when it ultimately did.

[RightWingNilla]

although imo he's managed his last Yankee game

Nope. Just heard on the FAN that Joe is coming back next year.

[truthandlife]

I actually told some co-workers yesterday that my main concern was Lidge's performance. Everybody talks about his dominance but he has not been that dominant in the playoffs. He has gotten out of jams and some games he has done pretty well but when the pressure has cranked up, I have noticed he really starts to feel the pressure. I told a person he needs to take a deep breath in between his pitches. The only reason he threw 2 sliders in a row is because when the pressure is cranked up he has no idea where his fastball is going and he knows Pujols can dial in to most fastballs. I hope Lidge gets a chance to redeem himself and I hope the Astros take the 6th game but I believe it will be an uphill battle.

The great thing about Oswalt is that he has ice water in his veins and I believe this will not effect him. I just wonder how this will effect the rest of the team. I am wondering if the Astros will be pressing more than usual and will struggle more on offense. I am wondering if the Cardinals will finally come out of their batting slump.

Lance Berkman will not be able to depend on 400 ft Crawford box homeruns anymore so I hope the Astros find a way to win. I think it will be an interesting Game 6. I bet FOX and MLB is loving this.

I was eating with my 6 year old girl and she knew I had been keeping up with all of this and she told me "Dad, don't worry about it, it is just a baseball game. It is not like someone is having a heart attack and dying.' She put it all in perspective but I am wondering how many people suffered heart attacks in Houston last night.

By the way, did you see the 2 second shot of Biggio with 2 outs in the 9th? I think he was crying thinking about getting to the World Series. I wonder what he was doing after the homerun was hit? I thought seeing Petitt's reaction saying "Oh my gosh" summed it up.

[F16Fighter]

" Just heard on the FAN that Joe is coming back next year."

I heard it too. (unless Steinbrenner convinces him otherwise with a generous buyout?

We need Lou Piniella at the helm. The finger Torre uses for his push-button moves is burnt to a crisp.

[Cyclopean Squid]

The crawford boxes can be misleading. Yes, they are shallow (but not as shallow as Yankee's RF), but they are elevated. Also, Berkman hits liner home runs, not the moonshots that Pujols hits. Berkman's homer was listed as 338' I believe--which would have been enough to carry it out of Busch, with LF listed as 330'.

I hope Lidge can bounce back. He is resiliant and a great talent and I would hate to see this negatively affect his career. Pujols and Eckstein were the heroes last night, but that can all change with Game 6. Can't wait.

[Not A Snowbird]

I was just sick watching it unfold. I had the same feeling and posted it just before the 3-run shot.

I missed it. I dashed off just as the 9th was getting underway to pick my daughter up from work, and walked back in just after he hit it. Grrr!

[truthandlife]

I would love to see Oswalt go the complete 9. The tough thing about Oswalt is that he can have a great game then he can have a lousy game. It should be interesting.

[GraniteStateConservative]

I think Lidge will be fine, at least for the rest of the playoffs. He did get a K the next AB.

It's all on Oswalt, though. If he pitches three shutout innings to start the game, the Astros batters will be more patient and have better ABs.

I trust Oswalt to get the job done. And, I'd send in Pettitte from the BP in a heartbeat if that's what it takes to end this in 6.

[SCALEMAN]

Berkman's homer was listed as 338' I believe--which would have been enough to carry it out of Busch, with LF listed as 330'.

LF is listed at 330 at Busch, but thats right at the foul pole. It gets further as you get away from the pole. I really doubt that would have carried at Busch, but such are opinions.

The crawford boxes can be misleading. Yes, they are shallow (but not as shallow as Yankee's RF), but they are elevated.

It's still an easier shot than LF in Busch, no question at all about that. The distance cited (330')is what it takes to get over the wall, just the same as the Crawford boxes, what it takes to get the ball into them. That would be akin to saying that the 330' at Busch is the base of the wall, which it isn't. A home run at the LF foul pole in Busch has to be longer than 330' to clear the wall. Everyone knows its easier to hit one in the Crawford boxes than to clear LF in Busch.

[Cyclopean Squid]

I don't doubt that. Certainly Pujols didn't have to worry about his clearing the wall.

[CARDINALRULES]

I just love Opie.

[CARDINALRULES]

Please don't call Clemens 'Rajah', he already has a nickname.

Rajah belongs to the great Cardinal hitter Rogers Hornsby.

And a young elephant in the STL Zoo. ;-`)

[hispanarepublicana]

Diddle: For me, televised baseball is like watching flies mate. BUT, Mr. HR, who has just now unclenched his teeth from last night's game, says that: "The Astros will NOT go to the World Series this year."
Personally, since I'm not a baseball fan, I think they deserve a lifetime ban from the World Series for those HORRID uniforms from the 80s or whatever it was I glimpsed in a clip last night.