Posted on 10/15/2005 1:36:23 PM PDT by lizol
Russia upset about Estonian monument
Big News Network.com Friday 14th October, 2005 (UPI)
The Russian government released a statement Friday saying Estonia has mocked the memory of victims of fascism by restoring a monument to an SS legion.
The monument to Estonians who fought on the side of Germany during World War II was put up last year, but taken down after an international outcry, the Novosti news agency reported. The monument is now set to be dedicated Saturday with government officials present.
It is especially outrageous that this is happening in the year that marks 60 years since the end of World War II, the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement. A new attempt to glorify the Estonian SS legion shows that official Tallinn (the Estonian capital) continues to have a supportive attitude toward them. We believe that such an approach has no justification.
Agreed.
While I don't agree with Estonia doing this, I understand their motives for wanting to tell the russians to go @*%$ themselves as much as possible.
Russia seized most of eastern europe as a spoil of war in 1945 and spent decades brutalizing the people of these countries and stealing its resources. To this day, they still believe they can tell these countries what they can and cannot do.
I am sorry, I did not mean to include you in among those posters, and failed to make it clear. It is precisely because I found your post to be well-reasoned that I tried to explain my reply to other posters that CONDONE such monument.
Estonians joined Germans because they wanted to get rid of the Soviets. It is pact with devil against another devil.
Very well put. Precisely because their choice was difficult, I would be open-minded enough to understand their erection of a monument to Estonians that fought in the German army. This is not the case: this monument is to the members of the SS legion.
It is like having a monument to KGB "soldiers." Yes communism was no better than Nazism; yes Soviets oppressed many people and their army was an instrument of that oppression. But I could see a monument to Russian soldiers. Under no circumstances can I justify a monument to KGB murderers.
And under no circumstances, even as difficult as in the case Estonians that had to chose between two evils, can I justify a monument to SS. It is an abomination without if and buts.
SS never fought on the fronts. Read something. Or ask questions. But please do stop spitting out nonsense.
Have you read the link, that I provided?
Waffen-SS units did fight at the fronts. The Waffen SS were military formations, not death camp guards. Your confusion on this issue helps explain your attitude.
Read what Jesus Christ had to say about falsely accusing your neighbor... and then go do penance or whatever it is you do.
Got caught in another lie I see...
Yes, we know the Nazis committed atrocities. What I was asking is if you had evidence that the soldiers being honored here were committing atrocities. The article says they "fought", not that they guarded camps. And nowhere does it mention anything of atrocities, which it would have if they were pertinent to this controversy.
I suspect that you know you don't have a leg to stand on here, which is why you're engaging in such despicable attacks on others on this thread. You're trying to cover for your ignorance.
A point worth pondering.
I'd like to know when this Estonian SS group was created. Was it before or after Germany went to war against Russia?
Because as WW2 went on, the SS was put on the fronts, east and west to fight the war as german army troop numbers dwindled. American soliders came across Polish conscript soliders wearing SS uniforms in countries like Belgium and Netherlands in 1944 who had been forced into service by the Germans and easily surrended once attacked.
While I'm not saying the Estonians were forced into the SS, I would be curious to know if they were created to run concentration camps and kill jews, or to fight the russians.
At least both the national socialists and the International Socialists were defeated. How can anyone put up a monument to either evil?
If you knew as much about what you're talking about as you claim to, you'd know that German law prohibited foreigners from joining the Wehrmacht. They therefore could only join the Waffen SS (which did fight along the front, contrary to your other assertion).
Yes. What, in your opinion did I miss?
Ah, I see. So, if the Russians were to erect a monument to KGB, you'd be asking whether there is evidence that those particular KGB members themselves committed atrocities?
This is not a grave; this is a symbol.
We have established enough during this exchange: you see nothing wrong with a monument to KGB, SS, Pol Pot murderers --- as long some particular members of those despicable organizations did not torture or kill personally; I find that abominable. It is clear now that this is not a misunderstanding but our positions.
Have a good day.
I am on your side, both Socialists were the enemies of the West.
You put words in my mouth: I never claimed expertise on the subject. WHat I did object to is the moral grounds for the support of the monument.
German law prohibited foreigners from joining the Wehrmacht. They therefore could only join the Waffen SS (which did fight along the front, contrary to your other assertion).
How about doing nothing because both are evil?
And even that is not the point, which you appear to insist on missing: whatever the knowledge, motives, and position of those "volunteers" were at the time, the monument is erecdted at the present time. Knowing what we know now, one cannot celebrate SS. But you apparentlty can. And we part the company here.
Have a good day.
OK, that's enough of you accusing your fellow freepers of being Nazi sympathizers with nothing whatsoever to back it up. You're acting like a slimy little troll, and it needs to stop now.
I and others have explained to you that these types of units did indeed fight along the front, and that there's no indication that these soldiers were prison guards. If you have further information to present to the contrary, feel free to post it. Otherwise, you can stick your slander where the sun don't shine.
Russians haven't yet raised a monument to the KGB, but they did elect KGB alumnus Putin President. Which is worse?
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