Posted on 10/07/2005 7:48:04 PM PDT by Heartlander
In 1999 someone posted on the internet an early fundraising proposal for Discovery Institute’s Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture. Dubbed the “Wedge Document,” this proposal soon took on a life of its own, popping up in all sorts of places and eventually spawning what can only be called a giant urban legend. Among true-believers on the Darwinist fringe the document came to be viewed as evidence for a secret conspiracy to fuse religion with science and impose a theocracy. These claims were so outlandish that for a long time we simply ignored them. But because some credulous Darwinists seem willing to believe almost anything, we decided we should set the record straight.
1. The Background
2. The Rise of an Urban Legend
3. What the Document Actually Says
Following are the document’s major points, which we still are happy to affirm:
A final thought: Don’t Darwinists have better ways to spend their time than inventing absurd conspiracy theories about their opponents? The longer Darwinists persist in spinning such urban legends, the more likely it is that fair-minded people will begin to question whether Darwinists know what they are talking about.
Read the Wedge document for yourself, along with a more detailed point by point response and clarification of falacious allegations.
OK, events that are not predictable are outside of science. Who decided this?
It's not the events being unpredictable. It hypotheses that don't make predictions.
OK, and science being about predictability concerns itself with history?
Science can predict the kinds of forensic evidence that will be found and the kinds that will not be found. Same as a criminal prosecutor. It's a good enough kind of science that we trust it to decide who can be executed and who cannot.
If criminal cases had hundreds of years worth of evidence, millions of data points and tens of thousands of investigators, decisions in law would be more trustworthy.
But clearly, certain evidence is not about predictability.
Actually, hosepipe, that should be extracosmic Beyond with capital B. This is Platos word for the divine Being who is wholly outside of the physical universe, extracosmic: God. Plato said very little about this god directly. But he recognizes it as the divine source of all truth, beauty, goodness, and justice; and as the ultimate author of the natural world. (Do we need to differentiate the meanings for cosmos and universe? Here I just mean the natural world that we move through, observing and measuring, microscope to telescope as it were.)
I think people may be overcomplicating what the 4th dimension is. It is simply a time dimension, and is not mysterious.
I do like to try for the least description that best accounts for what I see. But then again, maybe Im just simple-minded.
However, the least description would go something like this: There is an entity A that for whatever reason desires to effect a change of its current state, possibly in order to realize a purpose or goal, and has the energy to do it. The completion of the change-of-state transition would be A1 (i.e., the achievement of the purpose). We might describe A as located at a particular set of spatial coordinates x, y, and z the 3 of the 3+1 = 4D description of ordinary space/time reality. But if we do, we must do the very same thing for A1. Then comparing the values for the two, it turns out that A1s space coordinates are not the same as As. The difference between them can be accounted for only if one notices that time has elapsed between original impulse (first cause) and the achievement of the goal (final cause). And then one might say: What we are really describing here is events.
And everybody knows what an event is: It is something that has a beginning, winds its way through a further course of development (expected or unexpected), and then ends up at X. Events happen to everybody, and are initiated by everybody in mundane existence. This is not rocket science.
In short, there could be no event absent time for its evolution. And that is why time is not merely a coordinate of mathematical formalism, but is also and more importantly a field in which events can happen, in which things can evolve.
And this is just the ordinary time we humans experience every moment of our lives. We see time as moving linearly, from past, to present, to future. In this, observations of the second law of dynamics confirm the unidirectional, unilinear character of time as we normally experience it or think about it.
At the same time, we humans also seem to have a natural ability to experience time, not as a wave, or as the context of an event, but in terms of discrete units seconds, minutes, hours, days, weeks, etc. Maybe this is instinctive for us, given we constantly hear (even if unconsciously) our own heartbeat.
But a heartbeat is an event, too! So this ordinary time is of enormous importance to human beings, to the way we think about our existence and the world in which we live.
Anyhoot, it seems the time in which physical or natural events unfold is the time of the 4D space/time block: x,y,z, t. That is, time constitutes a dimension in itself. It is a differentiated dimension in the same way that a line extended to a plane differentiates a new spatial dimension. Time, it turns out, differentiates all the 3D of space: It seems that for 3D-space constituents to do anything or be anything at all requires a fourth dimension time.
But we have been speaking so far of finite time. There is a corresponding idea of infinite time, or Eternity. Infinite time transcends the t of the 4D block altogether. Indeed, it transcends all the dimensions of the 4D block taken collectively. Analogously to the relations obtaining among space and time in the 4D block, one conjectures that the fifth dimension 5Dt is the field in which the evolution of the 4D block takes place.
Well, enuf of this for now. If we need to improve the methodology by which this piece has been going forward so far, then please everybody, anybody, dont hesitate to yell at me. But please bring concrete alternative suggestions to the table.
hosepipe, you have certainly started a whole lot of trouble! May God ever bless you!
Do to this post I'm simpler than you.. Nyah d;-)~',',
Gives me something to think about to be sure, this post.. Maybe I'll re-read a particular book I know of that approaches some of these things(subjects) in way children can understand.. Just my speed..
[ hosepipe, you have certainly started a whole lot of trouble! May God ever bless you! ]
< lie> Not my objective at all..< /lie>
darn.. ;-) I'm exposed..
However, I aver that Christ is not a metaphor; I've known Him personally for 45 years. Nor is the Spirit a metaphor, He indwells me, informs me and guides me. Nor is the Father a metaphor, I know Him in Christ and the Spirit. They are One. God is Who He says He is: I am.
But to return to metaphors, it is sad that myths have gotten a bad rap. Most people these days consider a myth as having nothing to do with truth, just another piece of fiction. But it didn't used to be that way at all. Much of Plato's wisdom was conveyed in myths - and in more recent times, the myths of C.S. Lewis carry deeper messages which speak to the Christian spirit.
There is a difference though between the metaphorical language of philosophy and the metaphorical language of Christianity. The difference is Christ Himself because He is alive, the Living Word of God - Truth comes alive within us through the indwelling Spirit whereas truth of reason satisfies the mind but has no life of its own.
Therefore, whereas faith and reason are complementary - reason cannot substitute for faith.
Your description of how we sense the dimension of time is very informative!!! It is also directly related to the sidebar cornelis is having.
To paraphrase St. Thomas Aquinas, a form of causality is "but not for A, C would not be". In other words, if one removes A, C does not exist - therefore a cause/effect relationship exists between A and C.
If one removes time, events cannot occur - if one removes space (the 3 spatial dimensions), corporeals cannot exist. Thus "in" space/time (all dimensions) there can be no uncaused events or objects - even quantum fluctuations and radioactive decay.
The "void" from which "all that there is" began has no space, no time, no energy, no matter, no physical laws, no constants and therefore no physical causality. Only the uncaused cause - God - can make a beginning in the absence of causality itself.
Anything beyond that - is in timelessness and therefore, is theology or metaphysics, the boldface part of the expression I proposed as follows:
Exactly.. it takes faith to get in your car and go from A to B fully expecting to get back to A again.. That takes a measure of faith.. Unless you can predict the future.. Many small things in life take a measure of faith.. Most of my life tried to do "it" "whatever" myself and resorted to faith as a last resort.. My attitude was at some point, heck, all you can do is pray, now.. instead as a first resort.. Still do sometimes being a silly human..
However doing nothing or expecting whatever happens->> God did it.. that is a version of Gnosticism.. and fatalism.. Arrogance really.. in my experience.. And sadly, I do have some experience with that.. Gnostics don't seem to know much..
Exactly.. it takes faith to get in your car and go from A to B fully expecting to get back to A again.. That takes a measure of faith.. Unless you can predict the future.. Many small things in life take a measure of faith.. Most of my life tried to do "it" "whatever" myself and resorted to faith as a last resort.. My attitude was at some point, heck, all you can do is pray, now.. instead as a first resort.. Still do sometimes being a silly human..
However doing nothing or expecting whatever happens->> God did it.. that is a version of Gnosticism.. and fatalism.. Arrogance really.. in my experience.. And sadly, I do have some experience with that.. Gnostics don't seem to know much..
Well, that was a mouthful.. intend to chew throughly like my hillbilly Mamma told me..
For instance, they might see time as a rigid dimension of hyperspace (x,y,z,t) or to put it another way, what will be already is it cant be changed, so why bother? Free will is an illusion.
Conversely, some might reason that the mind is what the brain does, there is no ghost in the machine and therefore the mind/soul is merely an epiphenomenon of the physical brain which cannot cause anything to happen: our thinking that we moved a finger is an illusion, the physical brain did it. Again, free will is an illusion in that worldview.
Moreover, one might view all that there is is matter in all its motions three dimensional space evolving over time. (x,y,z)t. If one only knew the initial conditions and rules, everything could be predicted to the end of the universe. It is all strongly determined. Again, free will is an illusion.
The common thread of all such reasoning is a narrow worldview, one which denies the mind, soul or spirit as having any effectual existence. Indeed, I cannot see how any metaphysical naturalist could justify free will.
Or to use the math expressions again, I do not see how anyone with a worldview which only allows x,y,z,t could rationalize free will. IOW, to get there one must have some acceptance of soul/spirit or at the very least, be able to explain as an effectual phenomenon, consciousness/mind including awareness, decision making, etc. All of which are non-corporeal per se
To sum it up, even if one is unwilling to admit the supernatural he can nevertheless rationalize free will but only if he accepts that matter in all its motions is not all that there is.
I hope you don't mind - but I do want to point out something concerning your post to cornelis.
This sidebar began with a post by hosepipe at 521 which asserts a physical/metaphysical understanding. The terms used had different meanings than we were used to and thus we were trying to find some "common ground" to communicate better.
I personally found cornelis' post to be extremely helpful in sorting it out and comparing it with other views.
If time is stretchable it can obviously collapse(E=MC2) i.e. slowing down.. Why does it not make time an element of the third dimension effectivly makeing the third the fouth.?. or better said the third IS the fourth.. and the fifth dimension is an another animal altogether.. i.e. my hypothesis "the fifth"(NOW) is the Spiritual dimension.. LOL..
This a carosel.. its fun.. WEeeeee. LoL.. No music though thats weird..
True, on the otherhand some view some cosmic intelligence as an animistic entity.. i.e. my brother the buffalo, my sister the mental figment.. Or even view God as the great librarian there to help in the search for data, truth, and mental figments of all types..
If the human brain is all we are, then we are DNA'osaurs.. like the "EVOs" tell us we are.. If not.. then the "EVOs" are in for one HUGE surprise.. and maybe disappointment..
If people that believe in a human spirit are deluded.. They are deluded into concocting a much more sublime story.. than that bunch of other monkeys have(Evos).. Basically the Evo story is one of snarling beasts, and the believer story is one of a monkey with a crown on its head trying to act regal..
Much more humor in the monkey king story.. The snarling beast one is a downer.. No heros only dinner.. Must be why people prefer kittens and puppys to baby hyenas as pets.. generally.. Maybe Evos identify with the hyena, I dunno.. Ya think?..
(shining fingernails)..(with a wry smile)..(and faux regal demeanor)
The speed of light is constant. It is a null path, no time passes for the observer travelling at the speed of light. Time is sensed by the observers in space/time (construction of a Lorentz Transformation)
Time dilation or stretching is a phenomenon of velocity and therefore gravity or the space/time structure based on the equivalence principle. (post 524)
Also, Steinhardt's latest physical cosmology - the cyclic universe model - allows for the universe to expand, crunch, expand again and so on but time keeps marching on. That is considered a "weakness" in the theory.
O.K. If I'm correct and may not be.. Einstien said when approaching the speed of light time slows down.. i.e. stetching.. colapseing.. That would be in 3rd dimensional time and in a 3rd dimensional universe.. If so, then time is adjustable and "a commodity, in my words" like energy or matter.. The speed of light is referencing "light" as a thing.. like the speed of a train references the train.. only light can go at the speed of light so it must reference light itself.. E=MC2, the constant IS light not just the speed of it, no matter its speed.. C2 is not like a logarythm is it.?. The speed of light may be not able to slow down but time can.. maybe the constant is in fact a variable.. since time surely is a varible..
That is where I'm going with this.. right or wrong.. LoL..
Seems that if time is adjustable then its a 3rd dimensional "commidity" like mass or energy.. in 3D terms.. since as I understand it all three can be converted into one another energy, mass, light.. i.e. electro-mechanical universe.. Which is the point of the formula in my understanding..
You would know more about that than me.. scientifically, but thats the way I see it.. If I'm wrong SHOOT ME PLEASE.. I'm over my head and suffering.. pretty please. come on you can do it.. send me to Jesus I'm a very bad man.. I'm suffering for crying out loud.. Just SHOOT..
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