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Professor, teachers to testify in intelligent-design trial [Dover, PA, 05 Oct]
Times Leader ^ | 05 October 2005 | MARTHA RAFFAELE

Posted on 10/05/2005 3:53:39 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

HARRISBURG, Pa. - A philosophy professor and two science teachers were expected to testify Wednesday in a landmark trial over a school board's decision to include a reference to "intelligent design" in its biology curriculum.

Barbara Forrest, a philosophy professor at Southeastern Louisiana University, is being called as an expert witness on behalf of eight families who are trying to have intelligent design removed from the Dover Area School District's biology curriculum. The families contend that it effectively promotes the Bible's view of creation, violating the constitutional separation of church and state.

Forrest's testimony was expected to address what opponents allege is the religious nature of intelligent design, as well as the history and development of the concept, according to court papers filed by the plaintiffs before the trial.

U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III was also expected to hear testimony from Bertha Spahr, chairman of Dover High School's science department, and biology teacher Jennifer Miller.

Under the policy approved by Dover's school board in October 2004, students must hear a brief statement about intelligent design before classes on evolution. It says Charles Darwin's theory is "not a fact," has inexplicable "gaps," and refers students to an intelligent-design textbook for more information.

Intelligent-design supporters argue that life on Earth was the product of an unidentified intelligent force, and that natural selection cannot fully explain the origin of life or the emergence of highly complex life forms.

The plaintiffs are represented by a team put together by the American Civil Liberties Union and Americans United for Separation of Church and State. The school district is being defended by the Thomas More Law Center, a public-interest law firm based in Ann Arbor, Mich., that says its mission is to defend the religious freedom of Christians.

The trial began Sept. 26 and is expected to last as long as five weeks.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; US: Pennsylvania
KEYWORDS: cnim; crevolist; dover; evolution
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To: blowfish
And no, I don't believe in the literal truth of the bible.

There are several different styles of writing within the Bible. Much of it is literally true, but certainly not all of it. Those portions that are not literally true, do contain truth, but just not in a literal sense.

121 posted on 10/05/2005 10:55:14 AM PDT by connectthedots
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To: Right Wing Professor
Bull. I do quantum mechanics for a living. Evolution is every bit as credible as q.m. (both are 99+%)

99+% What?
122 posted on 10/05/2005 10:56:03 AM PDT by microgood
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To: connectthedots

What qualifications do you have to pronounce on the solidity of various branches of science?


123 posted on 10/05/2005 10:56:12 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: microgood
99+% What

Probability of being true.

124 posted on 10/05/2005 10:57:02 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: connectthedots
Please read some of my later posts. In short, ID is a rejection of evolution.

Well, I am glad that you are admitting that it is not a scientific theory in its own right. Maybe we are making progress.

Never said it proved ID, other than that if evolution is not true, can you propose other alternatives to consider?

Your or my incapacity to think of alternatives to ToE in no way validates supposed existing alternatives to ToE, which must stand or fall according to the extent to which they fit current observations, the successful predictions that they make, and the falsification attempts that they have survived. ToE has all of those characteristics in spades. So far no-one has ever proposed a scientific theory of ID that meets any part of the requirements of a theory.

125 posted on 10/05/2005 10:57:23 AM PDT by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: newsgatherer
"Right, maybe I don't understand evolution, but then again I am in good company. For seems none here has the ability to explain it to me, or even to try. That would include you.

Don't confuse the lack of desire to do so with an inability to do so. No one likes pounding their head against a wall.

126 posted on 10/05/2005 10:57:25 AM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: Right Wing Professor
I do quantum mechanics for a living. Evolution is every bit as credible as q.m. (both are 99+%)

You are destined to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, playing with dice.
</internet idiot mode>

127 posted on 10/05/2005 10:57:26 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Disclaimer -- this information may be legally false in Kansas.)
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To: From many - one.
Odds are that the source was a creative interpretation by literal creationists.

Actually, it was by a pro-evolutionist. I think there are intellectually honest evolutionists, even if I disagree with their conclusions.

128 posted on 10/05/2005 10:57:26 AM PDT by connectthedots
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To: connectthedots
You misunderstand ID. It argues that organisms are so complex and the various functions of parts of organisms are so complex, evolution cannot possibly be the explanation.

Ok. But if evolution, which is capable of evolving intelligence is false, then where did your "intelligence" come from that created species? If there is a mechanism other than evolution for forming complex structures with "intelligence", then what is it?

This is your conundrum. If evolution, or some other detectable mechanism for generating species is impossible, then so is the existence of an "intelligence" in the first place.

129 posted on 10/05/2005 10:57:48 AM PDT by narby
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To: PatrickHenry
You are destined to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, playing with dice.

Well, at least that'll take my mind off the torment.

Do I get a craps table?

130 posted on 10/05/2005 10:58:32 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: PatrickHenry
You are destined to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire, playing with dice.

Well, at least that'll take my mind off the torment.

Do I get a craps table?

131 posted on 10/05/2005 10:58:39 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: connectthedots
It seems pretty clear to me that the IDers have falsified evolution and the falsification is based on scientific observation.

One piece of evidence is all I ask. You totally clutter op the thread with one false allegation after another but you never show a shred of evidence for your bogus allegations.

132 posted on 10/05/2005 11:00:10 AM PDT by shuckmaster (Bring back SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: connectthedots
Do you believe God created species through evolution?

That's what I was taught in a Southern Baptist Church camp sometime around 1972.

133 posted on 10/05/2005 11:01:12 AM PDT by narby
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To: connectthedots
Much of it is literally true, but certainly not all of it.

How do you tell the difference?

134 posted on 10/05/2005 11:02:16 AM PDT by shuckmaster (Bring back SeaLion and ModernMan!)
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To: Coyoteman
"I recently received a Carbon-14 date at 7140 BP (Before Present, defined as AD 1950).

"Can you tell me how this date is so in error?

Easy. Carbon-14 years are shorter than Biblical years.

"ps. The site had no evidence of a flood.

All the evidence was washed away by the flood.

135 posted on 10/05/2005 11:04:37 AM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: connectthedots
To associate evolution with the high degree of credibility in mathematics and physics is an insult to those sciences.

When you come out with this stuff you just expose that you don't know anything about science. Wishing things about ToE because you have a religious aversion to it doesn't change the facts. I know lots of professional physicists, and I have never met one who thought that mainstream biology (in the form of ToE) was less well founded than their own speciality. If anything most physicists who have examined the data would say the opposite, that ToE is amongst the best founded of all human scientific knowledge.

Maths OTOH is qualitatively different from *all* the natural sciences, because it doesn't have to cope with the natural world so it can deal with concepts like "axioms" and "proofs". Natural sciences cannot do that. The real world is a messy place for both physicists and biologists; remarkable then that they come up with so many successful predictions and failed falsifications.

136 posted on 10/05/2005 11:04:37 AM PDT by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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To: Publius6961

"Teachers are the bottom of the intellectual pool"

That statement is a little too broad, I'd say. I've had some excellent teachers in my lifetime, ranging from one amazing guy who made an entire class actually understand differential equations...not an easy job...to an English teacher who got through to me on the importance of expressing onesself clearly.

For you to class all teachers as stupid is the height of arrogance, in my opinion.


137 posted on 10/05/2005 11:07:32 AM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: b_sharp
The site had no evidence of a flood.

All the evidence was washed away by the flood.

ROFL!

138 posted on 10/05/2005 11:07:57 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: b_sharp
The site had no evidence of a flood.

All the evidence was washed away by the flood.

ROFL!

139 posted on 10/05/2005 11:08:00 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: shuckmaster
How do you tell the difference?

He has a "truth-o-meter" supplied directly from God.

140 posted on 10/05/2005 11:08:02 AM PDT by Thatcherite (Conservative and Biblical Literalist are not synonymous)
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