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Presidential frontrunner in Poland rejects Big Six idea
The Financial Times ^ | October 1, 2005 | George Parker

Posted on 10/01/2005 11:13:11 AM PDT by lizol

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1 posted on 10/01/2005 11:13:13 AM PDT by lizol
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To: Tailgunner Joe; eyespysomething; toothfairy86; SkiPole18; curiosity; right; x5452; ...
Eastern European ping list


FRmail me to be added or removed from this Eastern European ping list

2 posted on 10/01/2005 11:15:56 AM PDT by lizol
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To: lizol
Donald Tusk, frontrunner in this month's Polish presidential elections, has rejected calls for Europe to be led by a group of six big countries including Poland.

Looks like Poland does not want to be more equal.

3 posted on 10/01/2005 11:17:01 AM PDT by Mike Darancette (Mesocons for Rice '08)
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To: lizol
Mr Tusk...said Europe should not be run by an exclusive club.

But, Mr. Tusk, that IS the plan.

4 posted on 10/01/2005 11:17:35 AM PDT by Bahbah (Call Chuckie Schumer @ 202-224-6542 for your FREE credit report)heh-heh!)
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To: lizol
Warsaw has been dismayed at the way Germany and France have developed close bilateral ties with Vladimir Putin, Russian president, particularly in the commercial field. "Principles and human rights are at least as important as economic interests," he said.

Good point, but hypocritical Western Europe doesn't get it. They can bluster about Bush=Hitler all they want but keep the criticism of China, if it even exists, to a bare minimum lest they decide not to buy Airbus anymore. Cowards.

5 posted on 10/01/2005 11:38:40 AM PDT by Citizen of the Savage Nation
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To: lizol
So much for my thinking Sarkozy was a smart guy. Back to Democracy 101 for you!
6 posted on 10/01/2005 4:42:37 PM PDT by Heatseeker ("I sort of like liberals now. They’re kind of cute when they’re shivering and afraid." - Ann Coulter)
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To: lizol
"freedom-oriented market economy"

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the alliance between Poland and England one of oldest known to mankind? (but still a distant second to the Covenant of Abraham and God)

I like that "G6" is a no go with Poland. It sounds like another excuse to legalize abortion and limit the number of ships that Gdansk can build. Germany had a similar problem with Brussels' limiting German maritime production...thus, the contracts moved to the Far East. The business didn't even stay in Europe!

This is all very interesting. I'd like to know more about how Polish conservatives define a "freedom-oriented market economy". It has a nice ring to it. Perhaps if it can fit into the Divine plan, like tying economic models into Human Vitae and using spending habits that reflect Proverbs, then there would be a goal for sluggish markets to move toward. If today's "modern" European nations continue to limit the size of families, euthanize their weakest members, bar God from being taught to children, subvert natural families into unnatural same-sex unions, abort unborn children, etc., then it seems as if Poland would have more in common with Latin and South American nations than with her European neighbors.

In fact, considering those who respect Natural Law, Poland may have more in common with Middle East and African cultures in that they wouldn't want to risk offending God with abortion and same-sex unions.

I'm sorry to hear that other Europeans find the Polish workforce such a threat. Many in America think the same of Catholic imports (Hispanics and Filipinos) that would substantially lower the cost of goods and services. If I were a big time Corporate CEO, I'd hire all of you guys in a New York minute...and get rich doing it, too.
7 posted on 10/02/2005 12:15:27 AM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: lizol

The idea of the "Big Six" is interesting and dangerous at the same time. Nicolas Sarkozy, the coming new strong man in France, is searching for ways to get the EU, who has sprung leak, afloat again. Since the EU is simply too big and the decision-making process doesn't work properly anymore, the old powers inside the EU are thinking about new ways to restore their old status again.

In France, Benelux and Germany the dream of a political union is still very actual. Especially the French assume, that their political and economical influence is growing immense if they are able to absorb Germany and the Benelux countries into a new system that is going to be dominated by their politicians. The recent decline of the EU constiution in France was not linked to a anti-EU attitude of the French people. It was the answer to Chiracs incompetence and a denial to a membership of Turkey. The idea of a core is quite popular among the French people.

Since Germany seems to be disrupted and plagued with a weak leadership in the next years, the French desires could come true. Sarkozy is a much more skilled and disingenuous politician as it seems from the outside. He understood that the idea of a political union is not possible with too many participants. Personally, I am sure that Sarkozy is not interested into too many members of his "leading club".

Besides of this hidden development I also see the necessity of a better basis for decision making inside the EU. In contrary to a core, dominated by the French, is this in the well known interest of all EU-members. Anyway a leaders club is BS, but we should think about making the thing work, if we want to avoid new trenches in Europe.

Since it is possible that Germany will tumble along without strong leadership during the next 4 years, it would be very helpful if the new gouvernment and the new president of Poland would try to bind its neighbour into closer ties to avoid a further polarisation inside the EU. The whole thing has to be kept balanced. We do not know who will have the power in Germany in the next years and we do not know if weak German politicians will subordinate under a convienient French rule which could be quite popular among all voters in western continental Europe. Agressive and populist blahblah is contraproductive and will take away the possibility to take influence.

P.S. The recent agreement of the German-Russian pipeline is a good example of the failure of unbalanced politics. It is better to convince enough politicians of the neighbour in the right time to avoid such unpleasant decisions. I would say that 98% of Germans or German politicians didn't understood the importance of the issue to Poland. Most of my compatriots just see it as a good business. Nothing more or less. Therefore Schroeder got thousands of votes. They do not understand the threat to Poland and its neighbours. Since Poland took its chances against German economic competition in the past nobody really cared. If there would have been more public work, information, lobbying and direct contact to our politicians there would have been a real chance to stop this project. Now it will be too late.


8 posted on 10/04/2005 3:16:17 PM PDT by Atlantic Bridge (O tempora! O mores!)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

Poland needs play nice with the French and the Szwabs. Poland is too poor to dissmis this proposal, do not cut your nose in spite of your face. These two have a long memory and Poland will need lots of financial support in the next couple of decades to try and catch up. Once Poland is on stable footing then it is another story. Remember no one else will give Poland the cash. Bite you tounge and wait.


9 posted on 10/06/2005 11:51:08 AM PDT by chicagopolish (POLSKA 4 - ANGLIA 2)
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To: SaltyJoe

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the alliance between Poland and England one of oldest known to mankind?"

During Napoleon's wars Poland fought against England on the French side :)


10 posted on 10/06/2005 2:01:43 PM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Atlantic Bridge
"Most of my compatriots just see it as a good business. Nothing more or less. Therefore Schroeder got thousands of votes."

Of course Putty joyfully agreed to sign the deal a few days before elections. I would exaggerate If I said that he stole your elections, but... and that's just the beginning. Enjoy Russia's friendship :)
11 posted on 10/06/2005 2:11:34 PM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: Grzegorz 246; SaltyJoe
Yes. Napoleon brought to Poland a modernized legal system and introduced the Licee system of education which helped Poland's education system to recover after decades of neglect (Poland has one of the oldest universities in the world, founded under a Lithuanian King ironically).

If you would like to go to a long-term alliance with the Brits, look to Portugal, which has, for the most part, been a loyal ally of the UK since independence.

12 posted on 10/06/2005 2:15:06 PM PDT by Clemenza (Gentlemen, Behold!)
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To: SaltyJoe
I like that "G6" is a no go with Poland. It sounds like another excuse to legalize abortion and limit the number of ships that Gdansk can build

I rather think G6 is a trick to keep Europe socialist. What is G6 supposed to do? To set rules for the EU? But if the rules were beneficial for everyone then why not ask everyone for their consent? Eh? Tusk rightly rejected this idea of G6 and he will be a good president (I will vote for him)

if it can fit into the Divine plan,

It is the divine plan I believe :)) Read Michael Novaks's books.

Poland may have more in common with Middle East and African cultures in that they wouldn't want to risk offending God with abortion and same-sex unions.

You know, if you want to flatter Poles or say something nice to them you should rather say that they have something in common with America. That would be the best of all compliments ;-))). And it would be actually more true. An American friend of mine who spent some time in Poland told me (I myself never was in America) that when you come to Poland you feel as if you were in Nebraska. Was it a compliment?

13 posted on 10/06/2005 4:03:15 PM PDT by REactor
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To: REactor
"You know, if you want to flatter Poles or say something nice...."

The Polish cops I met reminded me of my brothers-in-arms in the US Marine Corps.

I probably shouldn't tell you much more than that, less you become too arrogant, but there are American Catholics closely watching Poland to mimic how temporal government can serve without offending Christ or persecuting the Church, or blaming Israel and Jews for every thing bad in the world. Pope John Paul 2 was bigger than a mega rock star. The Scorpions, Guns 'n Roses, and Metallica all combined never had the staying power that Pope JP2 did with the pilgriming faithful. One of my theories is that there's something in the kielbasa diet and the winter weather that produces such people, but I'm probably wrong.

My hope for Poland is that you get an economic alliance going with other strong Pro-Life Catholic & Jewish loving nations. Several Latin and South American nations are strong Pro-Life, Jesus-loving, unborn baby defenders. If your nation can mix it up with them (interracial marriages and all...like "West Side Story" without the silly gang violence) then you'd have a blooming economy and finally get some great soccer teams too (please don't take offense ;-D ). Just lay off Sofia Vergara...I picked her first!

And don't forget about those Filipinos and Nigerians either. Another tid bit of a fact, did you know that Vietnamese are producing priests faster than most other Catholic cultures? Poland would probably do well in the Far East to undo the slavery of Communism as your nation is a role model for the universal call to holiness and the reality that a former socialist/communist economy can become a successful free market. Since Poland is in the unique position of not being part of American history in Vietnam, Polish influence and industry can and should do well in such nations. Of course, humanist atheism will be an obstacle...and not just in Vietnam.

So, don't try to "be" America too much when God has shaped your national identity for something most likely much greater than an American-styled democracy can serve.
14 posted on 10/06/2005 6:57:04 PM PDT by SaltyJoe (A mother's sorrowful heart and personal sacrifice redeems her lost child's soul.)
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To: SaltyJoe
Several Latin and South American nations are strong Pro-Life, Jesus-loving, unborn baby defenders. If your nation can mix it up with them...

My nation is a part of Europen Union for the time being. We do not intend to join Latin America. A few years before Poland joined EU there was a plan abroad in some libertarian circles that Poland should join NAFTA instead of EU. Most Poles laughed at this surreal and preposterous idea (not to mention that its authors never asked US or Canada if they wanted Poland among them).

then you'd have a blooming economy and finally get some great soccer teams too (please don't take offense ;-D ).

Whhhhhat? We don't have a great soccer team?!! Just watch our match against England on 12.10.2005. We are gonna kick those English pansies' asses!!!

Seriously, Poland wants to be a free-market country like America, a part of EU, and befriended with Latin America , Africa and Asia as well.;)) The fact that Poles are flattered by any comparison to America doesn't mean that we don't have our own dignity and a our own idea for life ;)

15 posted on 10/06/2005 8:04:51 PM PDT by REactor
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To: Grzegorz 246
Enjoy Russia's friendship

I have nothing against friendship with Russia, but I would hate it, if my gouvernment and Putty (I like that) will share their bed. Although Schroeder and Putty would already make a nice pair (togehter with Chirac a double-bed will not be satisfactory anymore - BuHuHaHa), I doubt that this game will work out for them, since next monday Schroeder will be no chancellor anymore...

16 posted on 10/06/2005 11:33:29 PM PDT by Atlantic Bridge (O tempora! O mores!)
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To: Atlantic Bridge
But what do you think about Putty and Gerdy signing the deal few days before elections and did that influence the result of elections ?
17 posted on 10/07/2005 7:48:34 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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To: lizol
This is a very smart move. One motivation behind the proposal is to separate Poland from the "second-tier" of European countries. Essentially, its a "divide and conquer" strategy by France and Germany. Once Poland does that, its ability to act as the leader of many of the smaller countries in Europe would be destroyed because it "sold out" to the big boys.

If it joined the "Gang of Six", it likely would find itself consistently outvoted by the others, and with less power than it had as a chief "spokesman" for the new democracies of eastern and central Europe.

The Poles are right to avoid this little trap that's been laid out for them.

18 posted on 10/07/2005 7:54:37 AM PDT by XJarhead
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To: Grzegorz 246
But what do you think about Putty and Gerdy signing the deal few days before elections and did that influence the result of elections ?

This dammed pipeline isn't a big deal in Germany since the public didn't get the strategic importance for eastern Europe. BTW - it took me some time to understand myself the whole dimension too. The media gave us the impression, that some Polish politicians are concerned because they do not get their transit fees anymore, but there was no word about the possibility to exclude Poland from Russian gas deliveries. It is nothing new, that some of your politicians are whining bitterly when Germany is working for its own economic interests. Our people remember very well the unflexible positions of Poland in EU-matters i.e.. Therefore nobody really cared that Poland is loosing some transit fees for Russian gas. Schroeder left a good impression among German voters, because they had the suggestion that this pipeline is good business.

Since I know the consequences of this deal in the meantime I dismiss it totally. Although I go in for good business even if this is against the economic interests of our competitors, we have absolutely no right to destablize the security of our neighbours. No matter how much money is earned with such a deal.

The bad thing is, that I do not have a solution to:

1. Convince the politicians to reject the deal

2. Convince and inform the German public that this deal was evil.

Therefore I think it will be smart if Poland would represent its interests in Germany better in the future than it did in in the past. A littlebit less affray and a littlebit more contact to important people. More importance on actual issues. All this expelled-BS i.e. is just explosive political and emotional junk. Nobody (important*) in Germany wants to invade Poland again. We should work togehter on the future in our well understood own interest.

* Maybe except some 90 year old methuselahs and some idiots of the NPD who should stay in a lunatic asylum.

19 posted on 10/07/2005 8:34:10 PM PDT by Atlantic Bridge (O tempora! O mores!)
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To: Atlantic Bridge

But I was asking If that helped SPD in elections.


20 posted on 10/08/2005 1:12:05 AM PDT by Grzegorz 246
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