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Challenged by Creationists, Museums Answer Back
The New York Times ^ | 9/20/2005 | CORNELIA DEAN

Posted on 09/20/2005 7:02:45 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor

ITHACA, N.Y. - Lenore Durkee, a retired biology professor, was volunteering as a docent at the Museum of the Earth here when she was confronted by a group of seven or eight people, creationists eager to challenge the museum exhibitions on evolution.

They peppered Dr. Durkee with questions about everything from techniques for dating fossils to the second law of thermodynamics, their queries coming so thick and fast that she found it hard to reply.

After about 45 minutes, "I told them I needed to take a break," she recalled. "My mouth was dry."

That encounter and others like it provided the impetus for a training session here in August. Dr. Durkee and scores of other volunteers and staff members from the museum and elsewhere crowded into a meeting room to hear advice from the museum director, Warren D. Allmon, on ways to deal with visitors who reject settled precepts of science on religious grounds.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; US: Colorado; US: Nebraska; US: New York; US: North Carolina
KEYWORDS: creationuts; crevolist; crevorepublic; enoughalready; evobots; evonuts; museum
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To: Doctor Stochastic

Are they from Jersey?


301 posted on 09/20/2005 9:49:17 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: All

Gotta do some work, else the taxpayer will be mad. Later, y'all.


302 posted on 09/20/2005 9:50:42 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor (It ain't compassion when you're using someone else's money.)
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To: JeffAtlanta
I was under the impression that you were arguing that it was appropriate behavior and that the tour guides should expect to field hostile questions.

I am arguing that, to some extent. They're dealing with the public. They can expect some to be hostile or rude. It's a peril of the job. Just a tough day's work.

303 posted on 09/20/2005 9:51:30 AM PDT by JohnnyZ (I'm marrying a woman before they make gay marriage mandatory!)
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To: Quark2005
I agree that I would like to see the transition of funding transfer to the private sector.

"Personally, I liked the university. They gave us money and facilities, we didn't have to produce anything! You've never been out of college! You don't know what it's like out there! I've *worked* in the private sector. They expect *results*." -- Ghostbusters

304 posted on 09/20/2005 9:51:51 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: ohioWfan

I know hecklers by their behavior. Asking questions, not listening to the answers.

If you want to know about my behavior on these threads, search my last 500 posts or so. I generally stay on topic.


305 posted on 09/20/2005 9:53:42 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: sheltonmac

Yep.

We want as many people educated as possible. Sometime read up on why that's a good idea.


306 posted on 09/20/2005 9:53:48 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: Doctor Stochastic; Right Wing Professor
Churches may not be taxed, but individual church members are taxed on their income. Since the individual income tax is already in effect, I wouldn't mind seeing all churches, companies, organizations, etc. exempt from taxes.


307 posted on 09/20/2005 9:53:53 AM PDT by sheltonmac (QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES)
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To: Right Wing Professor
The only people who claim evolution is accidental are either ignorant

So it's by design? :-)

308 posted on 09/20/2005 9:54:46 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: DGray
you are similarly biased in refusing to concede that there could be truth in it.

Absolutely untrue. I have no idea what the other side of the story is. And until I find that out, I have drawn no conclusions from this story.

You have admitted to "challenging" docents on museum tours yourself; could it be that even if you are not guilty of the extreme behavior that the article describes, you are in ideological agreement with it?

Absolutely untrue as well. I have never 'challenged' a museum curator, nor would I 'admit' to doing so when I have never done anything even remotely like it. I brought my family up as a hypothetical situation to disprove your bias that a group of people asking questions would necessarily be rude.

Please do not make false charges, and destroy a legitimate conversation.

309 posted on 09/20/2005 9:54:50 AM PDT by ohioWfan (If my people which are called by my name will humble themselves and pray......)
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To: Right Wing Professor

I think the Wedge Document deserves its own thread.


310 posted on 09/20/2005 9:54:56 AM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: antiRepublicrat

"Big difference between partially regurgitating food to re-chew it and eating cecal pellets (they're completely different from fecal pellets, or "poop"). "

Poop is poop. If it exits the anus, it's poop, in my book.

Seriously, I do know the difference, but it's a pretty hard one to explain to a 5-year-old the first time she sees her guinea pig pulling pellets out of its butt and eating them. I quote: "Ewwwww! Porky's eating his poop!"

Actually, this discussion has some relevance. The typical museum visitor in a major natural history museum has a lot in common with the 5-year-old mentioned above. The docent's task is to help them make some sense of the exhibits by explaining what they represent.

While the retired biology teacher in this article might well have been able to answer the questions posed by this argumentative group of visitors, that was not her job at the time.

In the same way, it was not my job to explain the bunny or guinea pig's cecal pellet ingestion to the 5-year-old. To her, the guinea pig was eating it's poop. The correct explanation for a 5-year-old is that it's doing that to get more nutrients out of its food, and that rabbits and guinea pigs do that, but people don't. More explanation is not needed for the audience and less is avoidance.

The kid goes away satisfied, and may (or may not) learn about the digestive process of lagomorphs later in life. The Bible's a lot like that, as I see it. It offers a simple explanation to a bunch of nomadic shepherds. It's OK for them to eat rabbits because rabbits are like the other animals it's OK to eat, since they "chew their cud." How'd we get here? God created us in his image.

Simple explanations, and adequate for the purpose.


311 posted on 09/20/2005 9:55:08 AM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: From many - one.

Point taken.


312 posted on 09/20/2005 9:56:07 AM PDT by ohioWfan (If my people which are called by my name will humble themselves and pray......)
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To: From many - one.

And yet it's the creationists who are always accused of forcing their beliefs on others. Again, very telling.


313 posted on 09/20/2005 9:56:14 AM PDT by sheltonmac (QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES)
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To: shekkian
Is the Platypus evidence of a beaver evolving into a duck, or a beaver evolving into a duck?

..It's obvious. beaver evolving into duck.

314 posted on 09/20/2005 9:56:43 AM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Memos on Bush Are Fake but Accurate". NYTimes)
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To: Doctor Stochastic

Quite so. Just your standard-issue, run-of-the-mill, Trinity-denying Christianity.


315 posted on 09/20/2005 9:56:55 AM PDT by general_re ("Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith, but in doubt." - Reinhold Niebuhr)
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To: MEGoody
On the other hand, evolutionists are rarely polite to creationists

They will be when the creationists bring forth supportable, meaningful scientific arguments. The article states someone was using the "2nd Law of Thermodynamics" argument. Even prominent creationist/IDers say not to use that argument anymore. It has been thoroughly debunked. Yet IDers persist.

IOW, scientists aren't always polite to people who are wasting their time.

316 posted on 09/20/2005 9:57:11 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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To: js1138
That's what you get for using subcontractors.

Jesus is more than a subcontractor:

JOHN 1

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

Jesus is much more than we know Him to be.
317 posted on 09/20/2005 9:58:26 AM PDT by Preachin' (Enoch's testimony was that he pleased God: Why are we still here?)
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To: ohioWfan
Absolutely untrue. I have no idea what the other side of the story is. And until I find that out, I have drawn no conclusions from this story.

But you've repeatedly told us that the NY Times is "leftist" thus strongly impying that what they write is not to be trusted. That's a conclusion in and of itself.

318 posted on 09/20/2005 9:58:31 AM PDT by DGray (http://nicanfhilidh.blogspot.com)
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To: Owl_Eagle

Simply an ongoing speciation process and you're a lumper rather than a splitter.


319 posted on 09/20/2005 9:58:55 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: ohioWfan
Ah.........so museum exhibits cannot be questioned. Interesting point of view.

Of course they can be questioned. If you're actually trying to mount a serious challenge to the presentation, though, the questions should be directed toward the scientists who established the veracity of the museum's various facts, they're the ones in a position to answer, not a museum tour guide. And your questions better have more substance than "Doesn't evolution break the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics?" if you expect your challenge to be taken as serious.

(Good to see ya around again, by the way.)

320 posted on 09/20/2005 9:59:02 AM PDT by Quark2005 (Where's the science?)
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