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Challenged by Creationists, Museums Answer Back
The New York Times ^ | 9/20/2005 | CORNELIA DEAN

Posted on 09/20/2005 7:02:45 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor

ITHACA, N.Y. - Lenore Durkee, a retired biology professor, was volunteering as a docent at the Museum of the Earth here when she was confronted by a group of seven or eight people, creationists eager to challenge the museum exhibitions on evolution.

They peppered Dr. Durkee with questions about everything from techniques for dating fossils to the second law of thermodynamics, their queries coming so thick and fast that she found it hard to reply.

After about 45 minutes, "I told them I needed to take a break," she recalled. "My mouth was dry."

That encounter and others like it provided the impetus for a training session here in August. Dr. Durkee and scores of other volunteers and staff members from the museum and elsewhere crowded into a meeting room to hear advice from the museum director, Warren D. Allmon, on ways to deal with visitors who reject settled precepts of science on religious grounds.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; US: Colorado; US: Nebraska; US: New York; US: North Carolina
KEYWORDS: creationuts; crevolist; crevorepublic; enoughalready; evobots; evonuts; museum
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To: DGray

"So it's your way or the highway, then, huh? If you eventually win your creationist debate, will you then start a campaign to shut down all Christian churches that believe differently for yours? I can't wait to see that happen."


How silly! Some Christian denominations accept evolution as the means the deity used to populate the planet. Others do not. As far as I know, there is no move on the part of either to eliminate the other.

It's just differences in doctrine. Such is the nature of organized Christianity. Were it not for doctrinal differences, everyone would still be members of the Roman Catholic or one of the Eastern Orthodox churches.

But they're not. There are hundreds of denominations, some of which differ on very, very tiny points of doctrine. Others differ hugely in doctrine.

Yet, all are denominations of Christianity.


101 posted on 09/20/2005 8:03:54 AM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: DGray
Now, a docent in a museum is not there to defend an entire belief system/theory/point of view.

I'm pretty sure that answering questions is part of the job description. And sometimes you get tough customers. They asked questions, she answered them, then she got a drink of water.

Are you saying you're unsure whether evolution is a belief system, a theory, or a point of view? Some folks don't mind the theory but think adopting it as a system of belief is quite another matter.

102 posted on 09/20/2005 8:06:20 AM PDT by JohnnyZ (I'm marrying a woman before they make gay marriage mandatory!)
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To: JohnnyZ
What they did was comparable to visiting a "learn about Christianity" forum and asking lots of critical questions.

A person that goes to a "learn about Christianity" forum for the expressed purpose of asking lots of critical questions, to the point where the instructor cannot present the material she is supposed to present, would be doing the same thing as what these people did to the museum docent. That indeed would be the equivalent of tossing a turd in the holy water.

The museum mobbers were not there to learn about evolution. They were there to keep the docent from presenting the material. It's nasty, disruptive behavior.

103 posted on 09/20/2005 8:07:16 AM PDT by DGray (http://nicanfhilidh.blogspot.com)
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To: atlaw

To tell you why Christ does not fit into the TOE would require of discussion of what exactly is Written in the Bible. Not exactly a common acceptable Book for the evolutionists.

The Bible does NOT tell of a young earth, or the creation of only two adult human beings and the length of those days of creation being only a 24/7 time frame. But hey the evolutionists does not believe as is their God given right.


104 posted on 09/20/2005 8:07:52 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: DGray

Me? Did I give my viewpoint somewhere?

Geez... quite the condescending attitude.

I get the impression that you are not one with which a rational discussion can be held. You are on the attack in the same manner as what you are attacking. It is hard to build much of a standing by rolling over those that may agree but be more personable.


105 posted on 09/20/2005 8:08:02 AM PDT by kpp_kpp
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To: Mark Felton
The greatest mind in quantum electro-dynamics, Feynman, also believed God must be behind physics because he could not believe how certain universal constants came to exist without Him.

Yes of course he did.

And Paul Dirac believed in Santa Claus

And Galileo believed the moon was made of Green Cheese

And I believe claims made by Creationists

106 posted on 09/20/2005 8:08:38 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy ( God is always invented to explain those things that you do not understand. - Richard Feynman)
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To: MineralMan

I agree with you 100%. However "justMythoughts" apparently doesn't. He says that you can't be a Christian and accept evolution. :)


107 posted on 09/20/2005 8:08:49 AM PDT by DGray (http://nicanfhilidh.blogspot.com)
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To: JohnnyZ

"Some folks don't mind the theory but think adopting it as a system of belief is quite another matter."

There's a difference between a "belief system" and believing that some scientific theory represents the most logical explanation of a phenomenon.

A "belief system" applies to much of one's life. Belief in a scientific theory hardly affects anything in one's life. I believe that the theory of evolution is a very logical explanation of speciation. That said, I rarely give it much thought, except in threads like this one. It is essentially irrelevant to my daily life.

One cannot say the same of a "belief system" which colors every aspect of one's life, as does religious faith.


108 posted on 09/20/2005 8:10:00 AM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Right Wing Professor; Owl_Eagle
They're all just a bunch of crazy Bible thumping fundamentalists who want to take us back to the 1700's, right? . . .Pretty much. You seem to be on the road yourself.

This is why crevo threads go bad.

Well, at least we have fosil evidence that traces man back to apes.We don't? . . . We do.

It's not evidence that would hold up in a murder trial.

Well, at least there's evidence of one species evolving from another and that by logical extention- oh, we don't have that either? . . . We do.

Which illustrates a semantic dispute over the meaining of "species." Anyway, TalkOrigins is not a scientific site It's a propaganda site. It's purpose is not to further knowledge to debate but to advocate a viewpoint.

109 posted on 09/20/2005 8:10:17 AM PDT by Tribune7
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To: megatherium

"Unless you're a libertarian who does not believe in any government role beyond law enforcement and the military, everyone agrees that education is a legitimate role of government. Public education is supposed to help ensure all the voting citizens out there are well-informed and have a proper understanding of our system of government."

You are either incredibly naive or mis-informed.

The roots of public education in the developed world, and more specifically, in the US:
http://www.thomhartmann.com/realschool.shtml

Look at the quotes and writings on the benefits of public school by he premier educators of the late 19th and early 20th centuries (Mann, Dewey, etc.), and you will find the real reason why we have compulsory education.


110 posted on 09/20/2005 8:11:22 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: JohnnyZ
I'm pretty sure that answering questions is part of the job description. And sometimes you get tough customers. They asked questions, she answered them, then she got a drink of water.

This is my response to you from another post, repeated:

"The museum mobbers were not there to learn about evolution. They were there to keep the docent from presenting the material. It's nasty, disruptive behavior."

Some folks don't mind the theory but think adopting it as a system of belief is quite another matter.

Then don't adopt it as a system of belief. What could be more simple?

111 posted on 09/20/2005 8:11:39 AM PDT by DGray (http://nicanfhilidh.blogspot.com)
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To: DGray
"So it's your way or the highway, then, huh? If you eventually win your creationist debate, will you then start a campaign to shut down all Christian churches that believe differently for yours? I can't wait to see that happen. < / sarc>"


No that is the common misconception of the evolutionists. Personally I have no need to mob an evolutionists museum, I would more than likely go to a "creationists" museum and ask them who it was that told them the Bible said this earth was a young earth. They sure did not get that common belief from the Bible.
112 posted on 09/20/2005 8:11:43 AM PDT by Just mythoughts
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To: DGray
Why do you keep repeating the word 'mob?' It doesn't further your argument to engage in hyperbole.

I am not defending nor criticizing what these folks did, but why do you think that asking a museum guide questions.......even multiple questions....... is inappropriate?

(And please leave out the word 'mob.' It's not verifiable).

113 posted on 09/20/2005 8:12:11 AM PDT by ohioWfan (If my people which are called by my name will humble themselves and pray......)
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To: Tribune7
It's not evidence that would hold up in a murder trial.

It is exactly the kind of evidence that is presented at murder trials. But far more carefully researched and presented.

114 posted on 09/20/2005 8:12:35 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: kpp_kpp
I get the impression that you are not one with which a rational discussion can be held. You are on the attack in the same manner as what you are attacking. It is hard to build much of a standing by rolling over those that may agree but be more personable.

It'd be helpful if you'd include the post you're referring to because I have no idea what has set you off.

115 posted on 09/20/2005 8:13:11 AM PDT by DGray (http://nicanfhilidh.blogspot.com)
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To: general_re
Hey, why does this inert pen feel "compelled" to fall to the floor when I let go of it?

The force of gravity. You exactly prove my point. Now explain which force it is that compels reproduction and motivates life. "Nothing happens without a cause" (Newton, Einstein, Feynman, Herschel...)

Your chart about reactance applies to billions of chemical reactions but they do not all constitute life. Only those specific reactions utilizing the 4 amino acids in DNA seem compelled to reporduce and create ever more complex and ever more energy dependnent constellations of reactivity.

BTW: Gravity does not exist in our world as we can perceive it with our own senses. "It" does not "fit" within our current 4 dimensions but it influences matter that does exist in our 4 dimensions. We know of it only because we can see its effect on other items that we can touch and see. Gravity fits the description of a "spirit", it cannot be seen, heard, felt, tasted etc ...it cannot be measured directly. We can only measure the force it applies to things that we can then measure directly.

Yet the pseudo-scientists reject seeing "life" and accepting that some "spirit" could possibly motivate the existence of life while they do accept that gravitional force exists when they can only see its affects on other objects. This bias against life force is simply a bias against the Bible. Had the Bible specifically discussed gravity then we would still this day be arguing against the gravity "spirit" as mere superstition by so many athestic "scientists".

116 posted on 09/20/2005 8:14:26 AM PDT by Mark Felton (Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.)
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To: Right Wing Professor

Sorry I missed your ping earlier. Big storm is passing by and I've been offline. I'm cranking up the ping machine ...


117 posted on 09/20/2005 8:14:30 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Disclaimer -- this information may be legally false in Kansas.)
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To: DGray

"He says that you can't be a Christian and accept evolution. :)"

Ah, yes. The "nae true Scot" argument. If you do not believe as this person believes, then you are not a "true Christian."

How silly that is, given the history of Christianity. If one followed that argument to its conclusions, there is only one true Christian on the planet, but every Christian is that one true Christian.

I've never met two Christians who shared every part of their doctrine. And that includes Roman Catholic priests with whom I've had discussions about doctrine.

Seems that Christianity is broad enough to accept lots of disagreements over doctrinal issues. But some Christians have a bit of trouble with those disagreements. Taken to its extreme, we get the "not a true Christian" or "nae true Scot" argument. Amusing.


118 posted on 09/20/2005 8:14:44 AM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: Right Wing Professor

Interesting.


119 posted on 09/20/2005 8:15:29 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: DGray
A person that goes to a "learn about Christianity" forum for the expressed purpose of asking lots of critical questions, to the point where the instructor cannot present the material she is supposed to present

If questions are not allowed, the questioners can be 'asked' to leave. If questions ARE allowed, then the job of the instructor is to answer them, since that is why they're there, to answer questions.

That indeed would be the equivalent of tossing a turd in the holy water.

I repeat: totally, mentally unbalanced, and more proof that you people see evolution as your religion and questioning it as blasphemy.

120 posted on 09/20/2005 8:16:09 AM PDT by JohnnyZ (I'm marrying a woman before they make gay marriage mandatory!)
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