Posted on 08/24/2005 2:59:33 PM PDT by Crackingham
On a blustery day early this year, 13,000 people showed up at Mars Hill Bible Church in Grand Rapids, Mich., for what became known as "Porn Sunday." Two young California pastors with a website called XXXchurch.com - "the No. 1 Christian porn site" - were in town with a silence-breaking message. Their frank talk about the struggles many Christians are having with pornography has drawn huge crowds in several churches across the country, and now the Revs. Craig Gross and Mike Foster are planning National Porn Sunday for Oct. 9.
"We were tired of hearing stories about people's lives being wrecked, and feeling they had nowhere to go in the church to get help," says Mr. Gross. He and Mr. Foster hope to engage 200 churches in talking openly about "America's dirty little secret" and are offering resources to help them initiate healing programs for their congregations.
While some consider the pastors' efforts controversial, many religious leaders recognize they need help on how to talk about this "elephant in the pews." Surveys show that 40 million Americans regularly view Internet pornography, which accounts for $2.5 billion of the $12 billion US porn industry. Some 25 percent of search-engine requests are porn-related; 20 percent of men and 13 percent of women admit accessing porn at work.
For years, churches were in denial about the scope of the problem, but the toll on marriages, careers, and faith communities has grown, Christian leaders say. And it involves not only congregants, but pastors.
In a 2001 survey published in Leadership Journal, 37 percent of pastors said pornography was a struggle for them, and 51 percent admitted it was a temptation.
"For 25 years, I would have said that the pro-life issue is the most pressing threat to America morally, but pornography has overtaken it," says the Rev. Richard Land, a prominent leader in the Southern Baptist Convention, the largest US Protestant denomination. "More people's lives are being destroyed on a daily basis by addiction to pornography than through abortion."
Douglas Weiss, a counselor with divinity and psychology degrees, speaks at churches of many denominations on sexuality issues. "Wherever I am ... and no matter what the denomination, at least half of the men in the church admit to being sexually addicted," he says. Based on his experience, "The clergy don't differ that much from the general population - between a third to half."
A pill that limits that desire is for weaklings and criminals only.
Actually, I do believe he's mocking the Calvinistic notion of it.
And I have to get going, but I'll get back to you with a reply for the other post later.
Agreed. I think the issue is that churches very often take the view that worldly stuff happens, and they're there to put on band-aids after we stagger off the field. It seems that too often the church tries to hard to be of this world, and thus has lost sight of its duty to help us be "in the world, but not of the world."
At one time I was somewhat curious about it, but that has long since been satisfied, and I find it disgusting, even if it is done in "good taste" because it means exploitation of a human being, usually a woman but not always.
I think it is a shame that so many people are being overcome by an addiction to porn. It is not a healthy expression of any kind of sexuality I would consider normal. Where is there any real love in any of it? It's all based on lust and stimulation.
The Catholic church has always or long taught that it is sinful. I do know Catholics get caught in the net same as others, but maybe true repentance at the sacrament of reconciliation can heal persons of this addiction. I don't know.
If I had a husband, and if I loved him, I would be very distressed if I found out he was seeking porn on the internet or elsewhere. I would probably want a divorce. I don't like men that get off on porn, and maybe there aren't many left like that out there.
Is it a fantasy or mine, or did true gentlemen of the past enjoy porn if they could get their hands on some?
I think Playboy magazine started the ball rolling downhill, although there must have been crude forms of porn throughout history.
PS. I once saw my Catholic supervisor going into an adult theater quite a ways from his home on my way home from work. It upset me, because in the workplace, he seemed like a really nice man. Maybe someday I'll find out it was just a look-alike.
I believe you are seeing something that isn't there.
The reality is, he was in agreement with me concerning the importance of preaching the Word, as opposed to your "social gospel".
We are in agreement there.
I believe there is a vast difference between being religious and being spiritual.
However, that verse continues:
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? 25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
There is a way out if we make an effort.
Here is another verse:
1 Corinthians 10:13 - There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
I'm back, but just long enough to reply to this snippet, rather than your or Ronzo's more substantive posts.
You'll note that the person mocking Calvinistic "preordination" was not Ronzo, but Lester Moore. As for the jab at my so-called "social gospel," the rebuttal will have to wait.
Lester is ignorant of predestination, as is obvious in his statements.
Or he is deliberately mischaracterizing the Calvinist conception of predestination so as to mock it.
If so then he is doubly ignorant.
Your family will have to ask themselves which is more important:
a) - Personal relationships with people
b) - Their duty to hear, study, and thirst for Truth.
My wife and I were in a similar situation with a very watered-down church. It was painful to leave friends and the "social activities", but it was the best thing for us.
We're now at a Reformed Baptist church and are learning God's Word, and hearing it preached as never before. The Lord has just ripped our hearts and minds open to receive sound teaching of His holy word. Our spiritual growth through this blessing has been phenominal, and the difference even in our daughter's perception and retention of Profitable things has increased.
Never forget that as a Christian man, you are accountable. You have an obligation to your family as the Husband, Father, and Spiritual Head of your household to ensure that they're being brought up in the fear and admonition of the Lord. No amount of "Gee, we'd like to leave but Sally will be upset with us" will make up for that.
God Bless you in your decision,
IOTN
Says you.
It's a fact.
BTTT
a) - Personal relationships with people
b) - Their duty to hear, study, and thirst for Truth.
Never forget that as a Christian man, you are accountable. You have an obligation to your family as the Husband, Father, and Spiritual Head of your household to ensure that they're being brought up in the fear and admonition of the Lord. No amount of "Gee, we'd like to leave but Sally will be upset with us" will make up for that.
Precisely.
According to Jesus if you look and lust you have commited adultry anyway.
So Buuzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz! still a loser.
I am not saying that it is not important, don't get me wrong. But too often, "I don't like the preaching" is used as an excuse to go "church shopping," as C.S. Lewis calls it. Reading the Word and prayer are as important as preaching ever was, and while I believe there is grace that is attached with the hearing of the Word, the keys to our spiritual lives are found in prayer, not in reading the Word.
Preaching is the primary means not only of instruction, but of keeping everyone in unity, striving towards the shared goal of sanctification, and the immediate rewards that come from greater sanctification, like freedom from sinful tendencies, such as porn for instance.
I think that Bible studies--the Word read and studied, as opposed to heard--fill that role, as does prayer.
Without strong, clear preaching, people simply go after there own notions about life and spirituality, and then you have a lot of opinions replacing a shared belief built upon the revelatory knowledge of God's Word. Yes, everyone can read the Bible for themselves, but not everyone is gifted in the interpretation of what they read. I have to agree with the Catholics that the Bible alone is NOT enough, that the church as an instution plays a signficant role is deciding how one should live according to the revelation of God's Word. In reality, the Protestants know this too, they just don't like to admit it.
I don't think I agree with most of this. It is not so much the preaching as the community that regulates its own behavior and keeps its members' beliefs "in line". The preacher may have the advantage of being a sort of central authority figure for everyone to look to for what they believe, but that goes back to the errors of Rome, and particularly does when we are talking about an independent congregation without any attachments to a denomination (which serves as a macro-community to regulate its pastors' doctrines as well as its members' doctrine).
You say that without strong, clear preaching, the community fractures into many groups with different beliefs based on their own opinions rather than a shared belief in the revealed Word. If this were truly the case, groups like InterVarsity Christian Fellowship (a parachurch organization similar to, but older than, Campus Crusade) would have a very difficult time engaging one another as a community to follow Christ, since it is a student-led interdenominational organization. Interaction with other believers in study of the Bible is just as effective at producing a consistent view of the fundamentals as is strong preaching. You may have varying takes on nonessentials like Calvinism/Arminianism, unconditional eternal security, paedobaptism/antipaedobaptism, and the proper mode of baptism, but you will have those takes even in churches with strong preaching. Not everyone that goes to a church with a popular preacher--John Piper, by way of example--believes that the preacher is right on all doctrinal points (believers' baptism, baptism by immersion, or Calvinism, in his church's case).
Concerning greater involvment in the congregation: this is point that hits close to home with me, as my greatest desire has been to be as much involved in church as possible, especially in the areas of prayer and adult education/spiritual formation.
Given what you say the situation is at your church, I am starting to see why you wish you could leave. Have you tried talking to the pastor about starting an open prayer ministry up again? Also, are you required to go with your family (i.e., do you have another car to use?) to church? You could also consider trying to get involved with another church that has a different meeting time than your family's church. Just some ideas.
Both you and the Church Fathers are painting with a very, very BROAD brush! While you may not be accusing me of it, I'm very interested in your motives for even bringing it up...
It's a common reason--and one to which I am not immune.
Regards "unchurched" Christians, I think that the fact that that segment of Christendom is growing is more an indicator of the aforementioned "noonday demon" than of the apostasy of various churches. Not every pastor that is not a stellar preacher is an apostate, and I would say that just as often as not, the reason "unchurched" Christians become unchurched is because they want something better--a better preacher, etc. Then, painting broadly again, it's easy for laziness to take over and keep them from ever searching for a new congregation, and they remain unchurched.
This is an excerpt from The Screwtape Letters that discusses what I have been talking about with regards to "church shopping":
Screwtape to Wormwood on Irregular Churchgoing:If a man can't be cured of churchgoing, the next best thing is to send him all over the neighborhood looking for the church that "suits" him until he becomes a taster or connoisseur of churches.
The reasons are obvious. In the first place, the parochial organization should always be attacked, because, being a unity of place and not of likings, it brings people of different classes and psychology together in the kind of unity the Enemy [i.e. God] desires. The congregational principle, on the other hand, makes each church into a kind of club, and finally, if all goes well, into a coterie or faction. In the second place, the search for a "suitable" church makes the man a critic where the Enemy wants him to be a pupil. What He wants of the layman in church is an attitude which may, indeed, be critical in the sense of rejecting what is false or unhelpful, but which is wholly uncritical in the sense that it does not appraise--does not waste time in thinking about what it rejects, but lays itself open in uncommenting, humble receptibity to any nourishment that is going. (You see how groveling, how unspiritual, how irredeemably vulgar He is!) This attitude, especially during sermons, creates the condition (most hostile to our whole policy) in which platitutes can become really audible to a human soul. There is hardly any sermon, or any book, which may not be dangerous to us if it is received in this temper. So pray bestir yourself and send this fool the round of the neighboring churches as soon as possible.
Cheaper yes, But it's not like the real thing. Except you get tired of her after so many years.
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