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Well, let's have at it...the battle continues to be joined!
1 posted on 08/24/2005 10:47:33 AM PDT by joyspring777
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Nothing new here. Same old stuff that's been soundly refuted already. I very enjoy David and Rush, but on this subject they don't know what they're talking about.


2 posted on 08/24/2005 10:52:12 AM PDT by TOWER
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To: joyspring777

> But not all scientists agree that ID lacks a scientific foundation.

Not all scientists agree that Holocaust denial lacks a scientific foundation. Nevertheless, the facts show what they show.


3 posted on 08/24/2005 10:55:47 AM PDT by orionblamblam ("You're the poster boy for what ID would turn out if it were taught in our schools." VadeRetro)
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To: joyspring777; PatrickHenry



http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/evolution-fact.html


Methinks the Limbaughs ought to stick to law and politics.........


4 posted on 08/24/2005 10:57:14 AM PDT by Vaquero (lets all play " The Crusades")
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To: joyspring777
Already Posted.
5 posted on 08/24/2005 10:58:00 AM PDT by NJ_gent (Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.)
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To: joyspring777
I'm all for ID in the class room.
The left wing indoctrination that "Man created man in his own image" has to stop. Not all people believe "self" is God, and the children in the public schools are not all self oriented zombies. They have open minds and a larger view of the universe than just "Man God and the big, round rock he dwells on."
6 posted on 08/24/2005 11:01:20 AM PDT by concerned about politics ("Get thee behind me, Liberal.")
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Not on the 'must excerpt' list, unless they've stopped updating this list: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1111944/posts

Test posting of a human events online article didn't require an excerpt, so here we go:




On those rare occasions that I write a column touching remotely on science, especially if I depart from the conventional wisdom of the greater scientific community, the contemptuous e-mails fill my inbox.

Such was the case a few columns ago when I broached the subject of Intelligent Design (ID) after President Bush indicated his receptiveness to ID theory being taught alongside evolution in the public schools. The hostile e-mailers pointed out what a consummate idiot and criminal trespasser I was for treading on their real estate.

They demanded I stick to law and politics, not because I know much more about them either, but by concentrating on those subjects at least I wouldn't be encroaching on their turf, which is reserved for the gifted. OK, they didn't really say that explicitly, but I divined, via supernatural intuition, that that's precisely what they meant.

The thrust of the e-mails was that ID is not science-based but is purely a matter of faith -- Biblical creationism in disguise. It cannot be tested in a lab (can macroevolution or any historical science be reproduced in a lab?). As such, ID should only be taught in public schools, if at all, under the rubric of philosophy or religion, not science. Besides, it is just one alternative theory. If you teach it, in fairness you must teach all other competing theories.

But not all scientists agree that ID lacks a scientific foundation. In the first place, ID uses science to confute certain tenets of Darwinism. In addition, ID proponents, such as Michael Behe and William Dembski, have developed criteria for testing design inferences.

Behe contends that irreducibly complex features are better explained by design because our knowledge and reason tell us that such features can only be produced by intelligent causes -- putting the lie, by the way, to the claim that ID is just one competing theory. Thus, ID advocates argue that design inference is testable: It could be refuted if someone could empirically demonstrate that unguided natural processes could produce irreducible complexity.

Moreover, ID theory is neither faith-based, nor results-oriented. It is not a concoction of Christians who were already convinced that God created the world but needed a scientific theory around which to wrap their unscientific faith.

It is not the slave of certain preordained conclusions. It examines the evidence and follows it to its logical conclusions, even if those conclusions -- such as that ID is the most plausible explanation for life's origin -- deviate from currently accepted science orthodoxy.

I trust my correspondents will meet these assertions with equal contempt. But many of them are guilty of the primary sin they ascribe to ID proponents. For they begin with an irrebuttable presumption not just that evolution is a valid theory but that the very origins of life are the result of material, not supernatural causes and any inquiry that proceeds apart from this presumption, by definition, is not scientific. After all, God's existence cannot be proved in a laboratory. By the clever use of circular logic, they ensure that ID can never be accepted as scientific.

Anyone who does not initiate his inquiry with the obligatory presumption is, by definition, a heretic, a crackpot and not part of the scientific community no matter how many science-related degrees he may have on his CV. So again, through grossly circular logic, they perpetuate the myth that no scientists believe in ID.

Consider what Harvard chemistry professor David Liu said about Harvard University's plan to spend $1 million annually toward research concerning the origin of life. "My expectation," said Liu, "is that we will be able to reduce this to a very simple series of logical events that could have taken place with no divine intervention."

Liu's statement is a tacit admission that Darwinists (used loosely here to include all scientific materialists) have yet to demonstrate the origin of life but nevertheless still fervently hold to their rigid presupposition that only a natural explanation is conceivable. That life began without intelligent causes is thus dutifully accepted without question and merely awaits the inevitable confirming evidence.

So held to their own standards, isn't the Darwinists' presupposition that life began without design unscientific? At the very least it requires as much faith as ID could conceivably require. Darwinists haven't even been able to prove, through empirical testing or otherwise, the evolution of existing species to others by Darwinian mechanisms.

I realize that not all scientists reject the idea of an intelligent creator. Nor am I saying that microevolution and ID are mutually exclusive theories. Natural selection, to a point, is entirely compatible with ID -- and with Biblical creationism, for that matter. It is the Darwinists' unsubstantiated leap that all forms of life began apart from intelligent causes that is incompatible, obviously, with ID.

It is neither ID proponents nor Christians who have created an artificial divide between science and faith but dyed-in-the-wool Darwinists. Many of them -- not all -- have chosen to define science in such a way that excludes the supernatural.

So why not allow ID to be taught in public schools or simply permit the fallacies of Darwinism to be exposed? As the brilliant biologist Jonathan Wells demonstrated in his Icons of Evolution, much of the evidence Darwinists have offered has been exaggerated, distorted or even faked, including certain basic “facts” routinely included in biology textbooks. Does such "science" qualify as science?

I repeat: Why can't we have an open inquiry?


7 posted on 08/24/2005 11:05:28 AM PDT by Diddle E. Squat (This has been a Fox Milk Carton Channel Alert)
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To: joyspring777

There's an interesting conjuction of these two lines of thought in mitochondrial DNA research that makes a strong argument that all humans came from a single woman in Africa several milliuon years ago. Sort of Eve of Genesis meets Watson and Crick. I.D. and evolution are not mutually exclusive ideas.


13 posted on 08/24/2005 11:19:30 AM PDT by JeeperFreeper
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To: joyspring777

>>They demanded I stick to law and politics, not because I know much more about them either, but by concentrating on those subjects at least I wouldn't be encroaching on their turf, which is reserved for the gifted. OK, they didn't really say that explicitly, but I divined, via supernatural intuition, that that's precisely what they meant.<<

I'm getting the feeling that some of those emails to him were from evo's posting on this very thread, from the condescending response I am seeing. 8^>


22 posted on 08/24/2005 11:40:42 AM PDT by RobRoy (Child support and maintenance (alimony) are what we used to call indentured slavery)
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To: joyspring777
ID is not science-based but is purely a matter of faith

Makes no sense backwards like that. ID is the basis of the possibility of science.

29 posted on 08/24/2005 11:52:10 AM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and open the Land Office)
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To: joyspring777
So held to their own standards, isn't the Darwinists' presupposition that life began without design unscientific? At the very least it requires as much faith as ID could conceivably require.

I say that the Flying Spaghetti Monster created the world. To assert that the Flying Spaghetti Monster does not exist requires as much faith as the Flying Spaghetti Monster would conceivably require.

Many of them -- not all -- have chosen to define science in such a way that excludes the supernatural.

The definition of science does exclude the supernatural (which, by definition, is outside the laws of nature).

58 posted on 08/24/2005 12:42:57 PM PDT by steve-b (A desire not to butt into other people's business is eighty percent of all human wisdom)
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To: joyspring777

If LImbaugh shows ignorance about science, and proclaims his right to be ignorant publicly, he shouldn't complain about the email he gets. If he doesn't understand and accept that he's ignorant, he's probably stupid too.


90 posted on 08/24/2005 1:13:28 PM PDT by DaGman
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To: joyspring777

It takes a lot of "faith" to make a billion year species jump like the Darwinists do.

From nothing to humans...now that's blind faith.


310 posted on 08/24/2005 8:59:08 PM PDT by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: joyspring777
The thrust of the e-mails was that ID is not science-based but is purely a matter of faith -- Biblical creationism in disguise.

Everyone knows that ID is about space aliens.

332 posted on 08/25/2005 10:21:52 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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