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Intelligent Design and Evolution at the White House
SETI Institute ^ | August 2005 | Edna DeVore

Posted on 08/18/2005 7:39:37 AM PDT by PatrickHenry

On August 1, 2005, a group of reporters from Texas met with President Bush in the Roosevelt room for a roundtable interview. The President’s remarks suggest that he believes that both intelligent design and evolution should be taught so that “people are exposed to different schools of thought.” There have been so many articles since his remarks that it’s useful to read the relevant portion of published interview:

“Q: I wanted to ask you about the -- what seems to be a growing debate over evolution versus intelligent design. What are your personal views on that, and do you think both should be taught in public schools?

THE PRESIDENT: I think -- as I said, harking back to my days as my governor -- both you and Herman are doing a fine job of dragging me back to the past. (Laughter.) Then, I said that, first of all, that decision should be made to local school districts, but I felt like both sides ought to be properly taught.

Q: Both sides should be properly taught?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, people -- so people can understand what the debate is about.

Q: So the answer accepts the validity of intelligent design as an alternative to evolution?

THE PRESIDENT: I think that part of education is to expose people to different schools of thought, and I'm not suggesting -- you're asking me whether or not people ought to be exposed to different ideas, and the answer is yes.”

(Transcript released by the White House and published on August 2, 2005 at WashingtonPost.com)

The reporter got it right: there is an ongoing debate over intelligent design vs. evolution, at least in the media and in politics. There is not a debate in the greater scientific community about the validity of evolution. Further, the vast majority of scientists do not consider intelligent design as a viable alternative to evolution.

Dr. John Marburger III, Presidential Science Advisor, tried to dispel the impact of the President’s comments. On Aug. 2, The New York Times quoted a telephone interview with Marburger in which he said, “evolution is the cornerstone of modern biology” and “intelligent design is not a scientific concept.” Certainly, no one doubts where Marburger stands. One might question whether the President takes Marbuger’s scientific advice seriously, or is simply more concerned about pleasing a portion of the electorate.

Marburger also spoke with Dr. Marvin Cohen, President of the American Physical Society, and recipient of the National Medal of Science from President Bush in 2002. In an Aug. 4 release, Cohen explains that the APS is “…happy that the President’s recent comments on the theory of intelligent design have been clarified. As Presidential Science Advisor John Marburger has explained, President Bush does not regard intelligent design as science. If such things are to be taught in the public schools, they belong in a course on comparative religion, which is a particularly appropriate subject for our children given the present state of the world.” It would be better to hear this directly from the President. Likely, the intelligent design advocates will ignore Marburger’s explanation. Like the fabled little Dutch boy, Marburger, stuck his finger in the dike in hopes of saving the day.

Unlike the brave boy, Marburger did not prevent the flood of print and electronic coverage that ensued. From August 2 to the present, Google-News tracked more than 1,800 articles, commentaries, and letters to the editor on intelligent design. That’s about 120 per day since the President’s remarks.

In the days following the interview, major educational and scientific organizations issued statements that criticized the President for considering intelligent design as a viable alternative to evolution, for confusing religion with science, and for advocating that intelligent design be taught in schools.

“President Bush, in advocating that the concept of ‘intelligent design’ be taught alongside the theory of evolution, puts America’s schoolchildren at risk,” says Fred Spilhaus, Executive Director of the American Geophysical Union. “Americans will need basic understanding of science in order to participate effectively in the 21 st century world. It is essential that students on every level learn what science is and how scientific knowledge progresses.” (AGU, Aug. 2, 2005) AGU is a scientific society comprising 43,000 Earth and space scientists.

Likewise, the American Institute of Biological Sciences criticized the President: “Intelligent design is not a scientific theory and must not be taught in science classes,” said AIBS president Dr. Marvalee Wake. “If we want our students to be able to compete in the global economy, if we want to attract the next generation into the sciences, we must make sure that we are teaching them science. We simply cannot begin to introduce non-scientific concepts into the science curriculum.” (AIBS, Aug. 5, 2005) The American Institute of Biological Sciences was established as a national umbrella organization for the biological sciences in 1947 by 11 scientific societies as part of the National Academy of Sciences. An independent non-profit organization since 1954, it has grown to represent more than 80 professional societies and organizations with a combined membership exceeding 240,000 scientists and educators. (AIBS website)

Science educators are equally dismayed. “The National Science Teachers Association (NSTA), the world’s largest organization of science educators, is stunned and disappointed that President Bush is endorsing the teaching of intelligent design – effectively opening the door for nonscientific ideas to be taught in the nation’s K-12 science classrooms. We stand with the nation’s leading scientific organizations and scientists, including Dr. John Marburger, the president’s top science advisor, in stating that intelligent design is not science. Intelligent design has no place in the science classroom, said Gerry Wheeler, NSTA Executive Director.” (NSTA, Aug. 3, 2005) NSTA has 55,000 members who teach science in elementary, middle and high schools as well as college and universities.

The American Federation of Teachers, which represents 1.3 million pre-K through 12 th grade teachers, was even harsher. “President Bush’s misinformed comments on ‘intelligent design’ signal a huge step backward for science education in the United States. The president’s endorsement of such a discredited, nonscientific view is akin to suggesting that students be taught the ‘alternative theory’ that the earth is flat or that the sun revolves around the earth. Intelligent design does not belong in the science classroom because it is not science.” (AFT, Aug. 4, 2005)

There is a problem here. Obviously, scientists and educators understand that intelligent design has no place in the classroom. Intelligent design is, simply, one of several varieties of creationism that offer religious explanations for the origin and current condition of the natural world. As such, it does not merit being taught alongside evolution as a “school of thought.” There’s significant legal precedent from US Supreme Court that creationism - in any clothing - does not belong in the American classrooms. Teaching creationism is in violation of the separation of church and state, and has been ruled illegal by the US Supreme Court in several cases. It’s unfortunate that the President apparently does not understand that science is not equivalent to a belief system but is description of how the natural world works. Creationism, including intelligent design, is a religious point of view, not science.

At a time when industrial, academic, and business leaders are calling for more American students to train in engineering, mathematics, science and technology, we need to teach science in science classrooms. Let’s teach the scientific ideas that are supported by overwhelming evidence such as gravitation, relativity, quantum mechanics, and evolution. Creationist ideas/beliefs, such as intelligent design, don’t belong in science classrooms. In our haste to leave no child behind, let’s not leave science behind either.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: anothercrevothread; bush; crevolist; enoughalready; evolution; id; makeitstop
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To: Gumlegs; PatrickHenry
It looks like a demand to prove a negative.

Perhaps, but then again, that's the claim they're making, that some things are too complex to have arisen naturally. They've effectively taken the task of proving a negative upon themselves, and I'm personally quite willing to let them chase that particular butterfly.

21 posted on 08/18/2005 8:28:15 AM PDT by general_re ("Frantic orthodoxy is never rooted in faith, but in doubt." - Reinhold Niebuhr)
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To: Junior
You have a great freeper homepage.
22 posted on 08/18/2005 8:29:11 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. The List-O-Links is at my homepage.)
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To: stremba
We should teach students that evolution is the accepted scientific theory explaining biodiversity, that there's a mountainous volume of evidence supporting this theory, and a small portion of this evidence should be presented.

I would teach them the following (this is from wikipedia).

"Microevolution can easily be demonstrated in the laboratory to the satisfaction of most observers. Whilst speciation events have been demonstrated in the laboratory and observed in the field, really dramatic differences between species do not usually occur in directly observable timescales (it occurs too quickly for the process to be shown in the fossil record.) It is argued that, since macroevolution can not be confirmed by a controlled experiment, it cannot be considered to be part of a scientific theory. However, evolutionists counter that astronomy, geology, archaeology and the other historical sciences, like macroevolution, have to check hypotheses through natural experiments. They confirm hypotheses by finding out if they conform or fit with the physical or observational evidence and can make valid predictions. In this way, macroevolution is testable and falsifiable."

This way students could see that the methodology and evidence for macroevolution is completely different from the type of evidence which has brought us the modern conveniences of science and there is only natual experimental evidence for macroevolution whereas the nonhistorical sciences have a much higher standard of evidence. Then the student would know that the "mountain" of evidence supporting macroevolution is a lower quality of evidence than is used in non-historical scientific research.

By the way, wikipedia's example of a natural experiment is hilarious.
23 posted on 08/18/2005 8:29:51 AM PDT by microgood
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To: The Ghost of FReepers Past; ohioWfan; Tribune7; Tolkien; GrandEagle; Right in Wisconsin; Dataman; ..
ping


Revelation 4:11
See my profile for info

24 posted on 08/18/2005 8:30:33 AM PDT by wallcrawlr (http://www.bionicear.com)
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To: Gumlegs; general_re
Perhaps [It looks like a demand to prove a negative], but then again, that's the claim they're making, that some things are too complex to have arisen naturally. They've effectively taken the task of proving a negative upon themselves, and I'm personally quite willing to let them chase that particular butterfly.

Quite so. That's what I had in mind when I put that question in my list.

25 posted on 08/18/2005 8:31:10 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. The List-O-Links is at my homepage.)
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Comment #26 Removed by Moderator

To: PatrickHenry
5. If an intelligent designer is responsible for the evolution of life on earth, then why are over 90% of all species now extinct?

Why are the majority of Model Ts no longer toodling along the roads?

27 posted on 08/18/2005 8:33:08 AM PDT by trebb ("I am the way... no one comes to the Father, but by me..." - Jesus in John 14:6 (RSV))
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To: PatrickHenry
I agree with you. President Bush should be impeached and even imprisioned for these comments.

Keep up the good work, crusader!!

28 posted on 08/18/2005 8:35:23 AM PDT by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: microgood
This way students could see that the methodology and evidence for macroevolution is completely different from the type of evidence which has brought us the modern conveniences of science and there is only natual experimental evidence for macroevolution whereas the nonhistorical sciences have a much higher standard of evidence

Would you say that tornado or tsunami warnings are a modern convenience of science?

29 posted on 08/18/2005 8:36:33 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor (Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory - John Marburger, science advisor to George W. Bush)
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To: js1138

Saw it. Very cleverly written; clearly satirists for the Onion have a much better understanding of modern science than your average creationist.


30 posted on 08/18/2005 8:38:56 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor (Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory - John Marburger, science advisor to George W. Bush)
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To: Chameleon
Somehow SETI wants us to believe that searching for signs of intelligence in outer space is science, but that searching for it in the building blocks of living organisms is not.

To be perfectly fair, SETI gets roundly flamed in the scientific community for making the same kind of stupid assumptions that ID makes in the face of damning theoretical arguments to the contrary. Mathematics does not support the possibility of fulfilling SETIs nominal mission.

But like with ID, the motivation behind SETI is more religious and ideological than scientific and so the underlying validity of the argument makes no difference to its supporters. Unfortunately, SETI attracts a lot geeky people, which lends a patina of scientific credibility where little should exist. At least ID is mostly the bastion of religious flakes, which significantly damages its credibility ipso facto.

As you imply, the theoretical argument against both is the same, and mathematics does not support a necessary underlying assumption in the general theory.

31 posted on 08/18/2005 8:41:16 AM PDT by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: PatrickHenry

Did you like the ads for Darwin Central?


32 posted on 08/18/2005 8:51:49 AM PDT by Junior (Just because the voices in your head tell you to do things doesn't mean you have to listen to them)
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To: stremba

I don't disagree with you. I don't have a problem with a class or book on evolution acknowledging the fact that there's an ongoing controversy on the subject. In many cases, the ongoing controversy has provided the challenge and incentive to advance the study. The problem is when a small element uses the controversy to insert their own personal superstitions while attacking scientific research without logic.


33 posted on 08/18/2005 8:53:02 AM PDT by shuckmaster
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To: Right Wing Professor
Would you say that tornado or tsunami warnings are a modern convenience of science?

Sure, but these events happen on a regular basis so any models which predict their behavior can be adapted based on direct observation.

On the other hand, no large macroevolutionary event has ever been observed, so any model predicting that behavior cannot be adapted or tested based on direct observation.
34 posted on 08/18/2005 9:02:51 AM PDT by microgood
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To: microgood
Sure, but these events happen on a regular basis so any models which predict their behavior can be adapted based on direct observation.

If you can find regularity in either earthquakes or tornados you could become very very rich. We don't predict their appearance. We can at best detect them in the early stages.

On the other hand, no large macroevolutionary event has ever been observed

What's a 'large macroevolutionary event'?

35 posted on 08/18/2005 9:07:17 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor (Intelligent Design is not a scientific theory - John Marburger, science advisor to George W. Bush)
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To: PatrickHenry
People always post these indigenous creation stories I guess with the intent to ridicule. But these stories are translated from the original language to english. Today we have a Iroquois Creation Story posted.

The Iroquois were not one tribe but a federation of six Native American nations: the Cayuga, Mohawk, Seneca, Oneida, Onondaga, and Tuscarora

The following is the Oneida Nation Story

I hope you understand that creation stories contain a wealth of material about a particular culture's world view. Why is the world created? What inspires this creation?
Oneida Nation Creation

no alt

 

Keller George, Wolf Clan Representative to the Nation's Men's Council, relates the following story his maternal great-grandmother told to him about the birth of the Evil Spirit and the Good Sprit.

 

Long, long ago, the earth was deep beneath the water. There was a great darkness because no sun or moon or stars shone. The only creatures living in this dark world were water animals such as the beaver, muskrat, duck and loon.

Far above the water-covered earth was the Land of the Happy Spirits, where the Great Spirit dwelled. In the center of this upper realm was a giant apple tree with roots that sank deep into the ground.

One day the Great Spirit pulled the tree up from its roots creating a pit in the ground. The Great Spirit called to his daughter, who lived in the Upper World. He commanded her to look into the pit. The woman did as she was told and peered through the hole. In the distance, she saw the Lower World covered by water and clouds.

The Great Spirit spoke to his daughter, telling her to go into the world of darkness. He then tenderly picked her up and dropped her into the hole. The woman, who would be called Sky Woman by those creatures watching her fall, began to slowly float downward.

As Sky Woman continued her descent, the water animals looked up. Far above them they saw a great light that was Sky Woman. The animals were initially afraid because of the light emanating from her. In their fear, they dove deep beneath the water.

The animals eventually conquered their fear and came back up to the surface. Now they were concerned about the woman, and what would happen to her when she reached the water.

The beaver told the others that they must find a dry place for her to rest upon. The beaver plunged deep beneath the water in search of earth. He was unsuccessful. After a time, his dead body surfaced to the top of the water.

The loon was the next creature to try to find some earth. He, too, was unsuccessful. Many others tried, but each animal failed. At last, the muskrat said he would try. When his dead body floated to the top, his little claws were clenched tight. The others opened his claws and found a little bit of earth.

The water animals summoned a great turtle and patted the earth upon its back. At once the turtle grew and grew, as did the amount of earth. This earth became North America, a great island.

During all this time, Sky Woman continued her gentle fall. The leader of the swans grew concerned as Sky Woman's approach grew imminent. He gathered a flock of swans that flew upward and allowed Sky Woman to rest upon their back. With great care, they placed her upon the newly formed earth.

Soon after her arrival, Sky Woman gave birth to twins. The first born became known as the Good Spirit. The other twin caused his mother so much pain that she died during his birth. He was to be known as the Evil Spirit.

The Good Spirit took his mother's head and hung it in the sky, and it became the sun. The Good Spirit also fashioned the stars and moon from his mother's body. He buried the remaining parts of Sky Woman under the earth. Thus, living things may always find nourishment from the soil for it springs from Mother Earth.

While the Good Spirit provided light, the Evil Spirit created the darkness. The Good Spirit created many things, but each time his brother would attempt to undo his good work.

The Good Spirit made the tall and beautiful trees, including the pines and hemlock. The Evil Spirit, to be contrary, stunted some trees or put gnarls and knots in their trunks. Other trees he covered in thorns or poisoned their fruit.

The Good Spirit made bear and deer. The Evil Spirit made poisonous animals such as lizards and serpents to destroy the animals created by his brother.

When the Good Spirit made springs and streams of pure crystal water, the Evil Spirit poisoned some and placed snakes in others. The Good Spirit made beautiful rivers. The Evil Spirit pushed rocks and dirt into the rivers creating swift and dangerous currents.

Everything the Good Spirit made his wicked brother attempted to destroy.

After the Good Spirit completed the earth, he created man out of red clay. Placing the man upon the earth, the Good Spirit instructed the man about how he should live. The Evil Spirit made a monkey from sea foam.

Upon completion of his work, the Good Spirit bestowed a protecting spirit upon all of his creations. This done, he called his brother and told him he must cease making trouble. The Evil Spirit emphatically refused. The Good Spirit became enraged at his brother's wickedness. He challenged his evil twin to combat. The winner would become the ruler of the world.

For their weapons they used the thorns of the giant apple tree. The battle raged for many days. The Good Spirit triumphed, overcoming his evil brother. The Good Spirit took his place as ruler of the earth and banished his brother to a dark cave under the ground. In this cave the Evil Spirit was to remain.

The Evil Spirit, however, has wicked servants who do his bidding and roam upon the earth. The wicked spirits are able to take any form and cause men to do evil things.

This is the reason that everyone has both a good heart and a bad heart. Regardless of how good a man is, he still possesses some evil. The reverse also is true. For however evil a man may be, he still has some good qualities. No man is perfect.

The Good Spirit continues to create and protect mankind. It is the Good Spirit who controls the spirits of good men upon their death. His wicked brother takes possession of the souls of those who are evil like himself. And so it remains.

36 posted on 08/18/2005 9:17:47 AM PDT by mordo
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To: PatrickHenry; VadeRetro; Junior; RadioAstronomer; Doctor Stochastic; furball4paws; ...
A pro-evolution science list with over 300 names.

Huzzahh! Huzzahh!

Over 300????? absolutely astounding, and without advertising, I bet!

Gee, you realize your pro Evo ping list on FR is only 100 names short of the anti-Evo "Scientists who Question Evolution" list. In another 6 months or a year, you'll surpass event that!

Just goes to show how narrow the support for anti-Evo-ism really is, but we knew that from "Gödel's" poll taken here on FR a few years ago, which after subtracting the multiple hundreds of over-votes by two anti-Evo's, resulted in something like a 5 or 10 to 1 ratio of pro-Evo to pro-Creationism posters on FR.

So, let the celebration begin! I hear DarwinCentral is springing for the drinks.....

Huzzah! Huzzah!

37 posted on 08/18/2005 9:26:27 AM PDT by longshadow
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To: Chameleon
This is quite funny.

No.

Somehow SETI wants us to believe that searching for signs of intelligence in outer space is science, but that searching for it in the building blocks of living organisms is not.

Not sure where you are driving with this but as stated, both are science.

The belief in extraterrestrials,

I do SETI and I do not "believe" in extraterrestrials.

and the need to find their existance is no more scientific than the belief/need with regards to intelligent design.

Flapdoodle.

38 posted on 08/18/2005 9:27:28 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: tortoise
To be perfectly fair, SETI gets roundly flamed in the scientific community for making the same kind of stupid assumptions that ID makes in the face of damning theoretical arguments to the contrary. Mathematics does not support the possibility of fulfilling SETIs nominal mission.

Yes and no. Too many folks take SETI way outside of the boundries set by good science.

39 posted on 08/18/2005 9:30:57 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: trebb
Why are the majority of Model Ts no longer toodling along the roads?

They evolved over time into higher order automobiles. One needs look no further than the Yugo, the Pacer, and the Edsal to see 'survival of the fittest' at work.

40 posted on 08/18/2005 9:34:27 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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