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Brazilian did not flee UK gun cops (London gun fire victim report)
The Australian ^ | August 18, 2005 | Daniel McGrory, London

Posted on 08/17/2005 7:21:10 PM PDT by F14 Pilot

BRITISH police made a series of catastrophic errors that led to armed officers shooting dead an innocent Brazilian when they were hunting the July 21 bombers, leaked witness statements show.

Officers who took part in the botched operation say the Brazilian, Jean Charles de Menezes, was being held by a member of a Scotland Yard surveillance team as he sat on a Tube train before he was shot eight times, the witness statements show.

Documents and photographs from the Independent Police Complaints Commission investigation reveal that one of the undercover team, who was meant to be identifying the shot man, was relieving himself as Menezes left his flat on July 22, so the officer could not tell if they had traced Hussain Osman, one of the alleged bombers.

The police team could have taken Menezes alive, the witness statements suggest.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Ian Blair will now come under strong pressure to explain how the high-profile police operation went so badly wrong.

An ITV News investigation reports that when Menezes, 27, was challenged by police on the Northern Line train at Stockwell he did not make any aggressive move. Claims by police at the time that the electrician was "behaving erratically" are false, the investigation found.

The blunders began as Menezes emerged from his flat at Tulse Hill in south London at 9.30am. But the undercover officer who was meant to identify anyone leaving the flats had left his post, so he could not communicate observations or take any video footage.

"It would be worth someone else having a look" to ensure police had the right man, he told other officers. But no other member of the surveillance team took a photograph of Menezes, although he had to take a bus to get to the station.

However, a commander at Scotland Yard, who was running the operation, declared a code red and handed responsibility for the arrest to a firearms team.

This armed team had been given photographs of the alleged bombers, but no one realised that Menezes bore no resemblance to any of them.

The report states that the firearms unit had been told unusual tactics might be required and that if they were deployed to intercept a suspect and there was an opportunity to challenge, but the subject was non-compliant, a shooting was authorised.

CCTV footage showed Menezes was wearing a thin denim jacket that could not conceal a bomb, and he was not carrying a bag. Far from running away from police, he did not realise anyone was following him and even picked up a free newspaper before using his season ticket to pass through the station barrier. He began to run only when he saw his train pull into the station.

At the time of the shooting, Scotland Yard said Menezes's clothing and his behaviour at the station added to their suspicions.

It was only when Menezes boarded the train that a surveillance officer guided four armed police into the same carriage.

A man sitting opposite Menezes said: "Within a few seconds, I saw a man coming into the double doors to my left. He was pointing a small black handgun towards a person sitting opposite me.

"He pointed the gun at the right-hand side of the man's head. The gun was within 12 inches of the man's head when the first shot was fired."

And the report reveals that one of the surveillance team members had grabbed hold of Menezes before he was shot.

"I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side," the statement says.

"I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting ... I heard a gunshot very close to my left ear and was dragged away on to the floor of the carriage."

The lawyer for the dead man's family, Harriet Wistrich, said last night there were far more questions than answers about police conduct. The family called for a full inquiry into the killing.

Rosangela Rebelo, a cousin who lives in the dead man's home town of Gonzaga, said: "The family always believed his cousins, who lived with him in London, over the police version of events. I never believed he ran away. The family is still waiting for justice. They killed an innocent man."


TOPICS: Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; United Kingdom; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 7july; alien; brazil; cctv; charles; eu; fire; gun; illegal; innocent; justice; kill; law; london; londonattacked; male; police; report; shoot; subway; terror; terrorism; uk; witness
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1 posted on 08/17/2005 7:21:18 PM PDT by F14 Pilot
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To: DoctorZIn; McGavin999; freedom44; nuconvert; sionnsar; AdmSmith; parisa; onyx; Pro-Bush; Valin; ...

Interesting news story!


2 posted on 08/17/2005 7:27:04 PM PDT by F14 Pilot (Democracy is a process not a product)
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To: F14 Pilot
Sheesh. That's *amazingly* different from the first reports.

Trying to piece it all together, I suspect an accidental discharge by the guy pointing the gun at the "suspect's" head, followed by frantic ass-covering stories which fell apart during the subsequent investigation because there were too many witnesses.

3 posted on 08/17/2005 7:27:25 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: Ichneumon

Apparently the man was shot 7 or 8 times and 3 other shots missed. Kinda odd for a misfire.


4 posted on 08/17/2005 7:34:11 PM PDT by burzum
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To: F14 Pilot

This is a VERY different story than the first reports.


5 posted on 08/17/2005 7:36:21 PM PDT by GVnana
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To: burzum

It sounds like a shooting exercise or an execution!


6 posted on 08/17/2005 7:38:00 PM PDT by F14 Pilot (Democracy is a process not a product)
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To: Ichneumon
..."as he sat on a Tube train before he was shot eight times..." ..."I suspect an accidental discharge..."

An accidental discharge of eight rounds could only happen if the officer was carrying a full-auto weapon, and I don't think he was.

7 posted on 08/17/2005 7:44:55 PM PDT by DJ Taylor (Once again our country is at war, and once again the Democrats have sided with our enemy.)
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To: F14 Pilot

Serves him right for walking around in a denim jacket.


8 posted on 08/17/2005 8:01:59 PM PDT by opinionator
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To: burzum; F14 Pilot

This is starting to sound like an 'Arkansas suicide.' You know, the 'fishy' kind. This stinks of week old plaice, with month-old shrimp scattered on top!


9 posted on 08/17/2005 8:03:26 PM PDT by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: F14 Pilot

Shooting excercise or execution?
No. A simple case of murder.


10 posted on 08/17/2005 8:07:33 PM PDT by henderson field
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To: DJ Taylor; burzum
[..."I suspect an accidental discharge..."]

An accidental discharge of eight rounds could only happen if the officer was carrying a full-auto weapon, and I don't think he was.

No, not if one guy has an A.D., then the other team members begin to fire as well, presuming that the first shooter saw something that required "taking out" the suspect.

Note that the team member who had pinned the suspect's arms reports that first he heard "a shot", indicating that the first shot was a single discharge, before he was pulled off the suspect -- apparently the next seven shots followed after he was moved clear, a few seconds after the first. But the initial shot was a single firing, it's clear that the whole team didn't open up at once, or that the first person to shoot was firing repeatedly.

I still think it sounds as if one team member shot, perhaps accidentally due to nerves, unfamiliarity with the weapon, or whatever, then the rest followed suit thinking that someone had "made the call" to take out the suspect immediately.

11 posted on 08/17/2005 8:14:56 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: F14 Pilot
I'm pretty sure that the officers were aware that they would probably have to shoot a suicide bomber in order to apprehend him.When they confronted the suspect an officer grabbed him and they started to fall back into the seat,which spooked the other officers.I think that this caused the first shot to be fired,which triggered the others within a split second.The officers did what they had to do against a dangerous suicide bomber.Too bad the victim wasn't one.
12 posted on 08/17/2005 9:10:29 PM PDT by rdcorso
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To: Ichneumon

I have heard several time s now from mainstream British media that akll but one shot came fron a single officers weapon.

That indicates an out of control jumpy officer.


13 posted on 08/17/2005 9:33:27 PM PDT by Androcles (All your typos are belong to us)
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To: F14 Pilot

This is being reported as though it's an official report, but actually it's been leaked by the man's family. I'll reserve judgement untill the whole report comes out.


14 posted on 08/17/2005 9:42:47 PM PDT by pau1f0rd (Still more majestic shalt thou rise, More dreadful from each foreign stroke.)
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To: Ichneumon

I think they had "tunnel vision" that they were following a bomber and they were scared out of their wits (not blaming them) that they were going to be blown up. Hence they "saw" what they believed was going to happen and killed him before he blew them up. Uh oh, wrong reality.


15 posted on 08/17/2005 9:47:24 PM PDT by Atchafalaya (When you're there, that's the best!!)
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To: Ichneumon
Ichneumon said: "Trying to piece it all together, I suspect an accidental discharge by the guy pointing the gun at the "suspect's" head ..."

I don't think there was any plan to take this person alive. It sounds to me like the police were hypnotized by their own procedures.

If you assume that a person has a bomb, what do you do? With no warning, you wrap your arms around him in an attempt to keep him from detonating the bomb, and then you shoot him in the cranium until movement stops. It sounds like that is exactly what they did.

16 posted on 08/17/2005 11:29:29 PM PDT by William Tell
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To: F14 Pilot
Ya, I take back everything I said on the previous threads...

The initial reports were that he refused to stop when commanded and that he then dove for the train.

Not that he was never ordered to do anything and that he boarded the train like everyone else and simply took a seat.

MAJOR change of "facts"...

The guy did absolutely nothing wrong (short of over extending his visa). The police thought he was somebody else and executed him. I can't condone that.
17 posted on 08/18/2005 12:22:57 AM PDT by DB (©)
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To: F14 Pilot

Sounds like an accident....yeah, that's it, an accident....

Yeah, right

What idiots!


18 posted on 08/18/2005 3:12:47 AM PDT by RaceBannon ((Prov 28:1 KJV) The wicked flee when no man pursueth: but the righteous are bold as a lion.)
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To: F14 Pilot

This is sick. And to think that some people on this site were making fun of this poor bastard and nominating him for "Darwin awards". I hope they're hanging their heads in shame, and I hope his family get justice.


19 posted on 08/18/2005 7:25:10 AM PDT by Youngblood
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To: RaceBannon

Maybe someone credible should investigate this?
Is the 9/11 Commission available?


20 posted on 08/18/2005 7:32:16 AM PDT by jaydubya2
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