'Shocking' blunders alleged over London police shooting (if true shocking)

Ireland Online ^ | 17/08/2005

[Former Military Chick]

The shooting dead of an innocent Brazilian by anti-terror police in London was branded “shocking and terrifying” after new details of alleged police blunders emerged.

Jean Charles de Menezes was gunned down at Stockwell Tube station in the mistaken belief that he was linked to the failed July 21 bomb attempts.

Initial accounts suggested that he had fled from armed officers by vaulting over barriers before stumbling onto an Underground train, where the officers opened fire.

But according to documents obtained by ITV News, the Brazilian entered the station at a normal walking pace and even picked up a free copy of the Metro newspaper.

The family of Mr de Menezes has called for a public inquiry into the death of the electrician.

His cousin Allessandro Pereira said: “My family deserve the full truth about his murder. The truth cannot be hidden any longer. It has to be made public.”

The leaked report also indicated that Mr de Menezes was wearing a light denim jacket and not the heavily padded coat initially claimed.

One police officer in the report was quoted as saying he was able to grab Mr de Menezes and pin his arms to his side before the shooting started.

Another told how earlier during the surveillance operation that led to the shooting he had been unable to record video footage of Mr de Menezes because he had been “relieving himself”.

The report also said a post mortem examination showed that Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, but three other bullets missed.

Harriet Wistrich, lawyer for the de Menezes family, told Channel Four News that they were distressed at the new revelations.

She added: “I think it is absolutely shocking and terrifying. There’s obviously some level of incompetence here or some serious breakdown in communications with the various officers involved in surveillance.”

The new account was said to have been obtained from the Independent Police Complaints Commission investigation into the killing of the 27-year-old.

The IPCC refused to confirm or deny the truth of the information, while Scotland Yard and the Home Office said it would be inappropriate to comment.

Home Secretary Charles Clarke pledged that when the IPCC report was published it would be “carefully considered and acted upon”.

Liberty director Shami Chakrabarti said the emerging details were “more and more troubling” and highlighted the need for a “truly independent” investigation.

The Justice4Jean Family campaign also urged a public inquiry.

Campaign spokesperson Asad Rehman said: “The people of London have been told lies and half truths about how Jean died.

“It is clear from the evidence from the IPPC that Jean was killed in cold blood. His death resembles an extra-judicial execution. The evidence clearly shows he was being restrained before being shot dead.

“The Home Secretary must now use his powers to order a full Judicial Inquiry into the killing. This is the minimum required if we are to have any faith in those responsible for our security and safety.”

On July 22, police had been monitoring a flat in Scotia Road, Tulse Hill, south London, which they believed was linked to the previous day’s bomb attempts.

Mr de Menezes left the property before taking a bus to Stockwell tube station.

During the course of his journey, officers came to the conclusion that he matched the description of one of two terror suspects, including Hussain Osman, the alleged Shepherd’s Bush attempted bomber, according to the leaked documents.

One surveillance officer at the Tulse Hill address said he “checked the photographs” and thought “it would be worth someone else having a look”.

He is quoted saying that he was unable to transmit his observations and turn on his video camera at the same time.

“I was in the process of relieving myself,” he said.

CCTV footage showed that after Mr de Menezes entered Stockwell station he slowly descended the escalators before running for a train and sitting down.

“Almost simultaneously armed officers … were provided with positive identification,” the report says.

The Brazilian was seen to board the Underground train through the middle doors before pausing, looking left and right, then sitting down in either the second or third seat facing the platform.

A man sitting opposite saw a man boarding and firing his first shot from a handgun at the head of Mr de Menezes from 12 inches away.

A member of the surveillance team said in the report that he heard shouting including the word police before turning to face Mr de Menezes.

“He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the CO19 officers … I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.

“I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting … I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage.”

Scotland Yard Commissioner Sir Ian Blair initially said the shooting was “directly linked” to anti-terror operations but detectives later established he was not connected to attempts to blow up three Underground trains and a bus in the capital the previous day.

Former Flying Squad commander John O’Connor said the leaked report would have caused “great embarrassment” to Met Commissioner Sir Ian Blair.

He told BBC Breakfast News: “There will be pressure on the Met Commissioner to consider his position. Whoever has leaked this report has caused him a great deal of embarrassment. You have to ask how on earth a report of this sensitivity has got out.

He added it was “very difficult” to blame police officers for the death of Mr de Menezes.

Mr O’Connor said: “It’s very difficult to put the blame on individuals as it appears they were acting on information that it was a positive ID of one of the suspected bombers.

“But had the normal procedures taken place in which a warning is given and officers wear specially marked clothing then this young man may not have been killed.”

[Former Military Chick]

ITN NEWS

De Menezes family: 'Give us the truth'

8.54AM, Wed Aug 17 2005

The shooting dead of an innocent Brazilian by anti-terror police has been branded "shocking and terrifying" after new details of alleged police blunders emerged.

Jean Charles de Menezes was gunned down at Stockwell Tube station in the mistaken belief that he was linked to the failed July 21 bomb attempts.

Initial accounts suggested that he had fled from armed officers by vaulting over barriers before stumbling onto an Underground train, where the officers opened fire.

But according to documents obtained by ITV News, the Brazilian entered the station at a normal walking pace and even picked up a free copy of the Metro newspaper.

The family of Mr de Menezes has called for a public inquiry into the death of the electrician.

His cousin Allessandro Pereira said: "My family deserve the full truth about his murder. The truth cannot be hidden any longer. It has to be made public."

Harriet Wistrich, lawyer for the de Menezes family, told the press: "It raises very, very serious questions about the shoot-to-kill policy and shows immediate questions need to be asked about whether this policy should be in operation and how dangerously wrong it can go."

The leaked report also indicated that Mr de Menezes was wearing a light denim jacket and not the heavily padded coat as initially claimed.

One police officer in the report was quoted as saying he was able to grab Mr de Menezes and pin his arms to his side before the shooting started.

Another told how earlier during the surveillance operation that led to the shooting he had been unable to record video footage of Mr de Menezes because he had been "relieving himself".

The report also said a post mortem examination showed that Mr de Menezes was shot seven times in the head and once in the shoulder, but three other bullets missed.

On July 22, police had been monitoring a flat in Scotia Road, Tulse Hill, south London, which they believed was linked to the previous day's bomb attempts.

Mr de Menezes left the property before taking a bus to Stockwell tube station.

During the course of his journey, officers came to the conclusion that he matched the description of one of two terror suspects, including Hussain Osman, the alleged Shepherd's Bush attempted bomber, according to the leaked documents.

CCTV footage showed that after Mr de Menezes entered Stockwell station he slowly descended the escalators before running for a train and sitting down.

"Almost simultaneously armed officers ... were provided with positive identification," the report says.

The Brazilian was seen to board the Underground train through the middle doors before pausing, looking left and right, then sitting down in either the second or third seat facing the platform.

A man sitting opposite saw a man boarding and firing his first shot from a handgun at the head of Mr de Menezes from 12 inches away.

A member of the surveillance team said in the report that he heard shouting including the word police before turning to face Mr de Menezes.

"He immediately stood up and advanced towards me and the CO19 officers ... I grabbed the male in the denim jacket by wrapping both my arms around his torso, pinning his arms to his side.

"I then pushed him back on to the seat where he had been previously sitting ... I then heard a gun shot very close to my left ear and was dragged away onto the floor of the carriage."

Scotland Yard Commissioner Sir Ian Blair initially said the shooting was "directly linked" to anti-terror operations but detectives later established he was not connected to attempts to blow up three Underground trains and a bus in the capital the previous day.

[A CA Guy]

At some point this guy fled when he was asked to stop by the police.
He ran and kept running and that is going to always put yourself at risk.

[AngelesCrestHighway]

Oh well...bottom line...run from the police and expect a butt full of lead!

[Former Military Chick]

The other day, when the news reported that someone had text messaged from the plane prior to the crash just did not seem plausible, but, the media ran with the story.

The guy ended up getting arrested cuz he lied. To who, I mean how many times do you see cranks getting access to CNN in a breaking story.

So, the idea that the man, ignored the cops, wore a heavy jacket indeed would have given rise for the guys to shoot him. If had a bomb under that said jacket he could have killed many.

But, now the truth is he wasn't wearing a heavy jacket and belt, did not jump the ticket barrier he had been restrained physically before being shot 8 times.

I always have to hope those with a badge do the right thing. Terror is a tough war, I would give some discretion but the facts are now so different from day one.

If this is all true, I doubt his family will sleep any better.

[Former Military Chick]

Morning friend!

I understand, I just find it odd, the initial reports were so different. But, the family was immediately compensated for the death of a loved one. I do not know how the justice system works there, but, they handled it quite quickly. Perhaps this is why.

I agree, run, and you are in trouble. But, the most compelling arguments are now not true.

I imagine many have learned from this incident.

As always thanks for the comment.

[cricket]

This may be shocking. . .and am not endorsing this response in any way. . .but to a degree; at least understandable. What is a 'normal' and immediate response to terror bombings. . .Experience?

These policemen were not alive in World War ll; and were not well-trained in terror response and adrenelaine was high. . .high, post bombings. And while not a padded jacket; denim can a least; look bulky.

More than shocking; it is very sad that this man became a ready-target for these policemen; who no doubt; need more terror-response education. . .and sadly, have now, to learn from a real-life, terror attack. . .

[DefiantZERO]

I was in southern England a week before those bombings. Even a light denim jacket was asking for heat stroke at the time.

[FreedomPoster]

I have read that it was around 65F at the time of this event.

[ukman]

I'd long suspected that the truth of this matter would be very damaging to the Met's reputation.
British police have been wise to continue the tradition of going without guns whenever possible. Only a small percentage (around 8%?)are more or less trained in their use, and even these officers have made some very bad mistakes in the past. My sister, a police officer, tells me that almost nobody in the force wants guns: a lot of weight to lug about, plus extra training, cleaning, paperwork etc., in short far more trouble than they're worth, since real gun crime is negligible in the UK and almost no private citizen has a gun any more (after the amnesties). There are armed-response cars for those few cases when guns do turn up. Britain's gun-free society is a real blessing.

I know a police officer in Germany who told me that in all his years as a cop he's only drawn his weapon twice and never fired it while on duty. And Germany has a lot more weapons floating around than in the UK.

Anyway, I hope that the officer(s) responsible for killing this poor Brazilian fellow get done for murder and drummed out of the force, and that the victim's relatives sue HM Govt. for millions. Heads will certainly have to roll for this one.

[gridlock]

A man sitting opposite saw a man boarding and firing his first shot from a handgun at the head of Mr de Menezes from 12 inches away.

Every thing after this is gravy. Somebody pumps one into your head from 12 inches away, and all of the arm pinning, police warnings, and subsequent shots are kind of irrelevant to the central fact that you're dead.

The disturbing thing about this account is that there was no chase, no warning, no identification as police officers before that first shot was fired into his head. Mr. De Menezes entered the station and boarded the train in the normal manner, and was sitting quietly on the train when the "positive" identification came over the radio and he was summarily executed.

Which is the point of the whole exersize, of course. If somebody is positively identified as a terrorist and they are in a location where they could harm a lot of people, they are whacked without warning. Otherwise, they could trigger any bomb they might have. That is why there is no warning before the first shot.

The shouting of warnings and identification as police officers is for the benefit if the other people on the train, to warn them to get out of the way while the assembled officers pumped insurance rounds into the alleged terrorist's dead carcass.

But it looks like Mr. De Menezes did not run from the police, did not refuse any police order of any kind, and was simply minding his own business when he was suddenly shot without warning.

I'm sorry. If that sort of thing is the price of safety, the price is too damn high.

[gridlock]

This guy did not run from the police, according to this account. He just got on the train and was whacked.

If this account is true, as I suspect it is, what do you think of that?

[Former Military Chick]

Just wanted to say thanks for your terrific comments, it makes my morning all the more enjoyable.

When this shooting occurred, it did not set well with me. But I did not know why, and in the end, if someone is moving away from the police, has a coat on, in an area where there are large crowds the police really have no choice.

You do not have x-ray eyes, so your judgement is, I must take him out before he takes many out.

But, I gave the folks the benefit of the doubt. I do not think the cops, went into work that day, giddy with excitement to kill another person. I have no doubt there needs to be better training. There also has to be better investigative reporters, to find the truth, to help keep folks honest.

Frankly there are no longer any real investigative reporters, but, that is for another thread and another discussion.

This was a mistake that cost dearly, for a family missing a family member and for those who we thought at the time had a righteous shoot.

[TaxRelief]

I suspect this was a problem of Bobbies who had not been armed in the past, overreacting to the power of gun at their disposal.

[gridlock]

I have not forgotten September 11^th. I would prefer to live in a country that accepts that terrorists may succeesfully kill people rather than resorting to this sort of shoot-on-sight policy in an attempt to prevent them.

I give wide latitude to the Police and the military when it comes to preventing terrorism. Wiretaps, infiltration, SWAT raids on safehouses, financial traces and Gitmo are all acceptable ways to fight terrorism. Even more I support whacking the "foreign fighters" in Iraq wherever they pop up, like some gigantic game of Whack-A-Mole. But I draw the line at this.

If, in spite of the best police efforts, some Islamakazi a$$hole gets a suicide bomb onto a Subway train, then he has won that round. You clean up the mess, treat the wounded, comfort the grieving, make provisions for the widows and orphans and move on to the next round.

Even if the police are granted wide latitude to whack all swarthy males in jackets, they will still not be able to stop suicide bombing. And then the people will have to live in fear of the terrorists and the police.

[ladyrustic]

>I'm sorry. If that sort of thing is the price of safety, the price is too damn high.<

I strongly agree. Well said.

[Randy Papadoo]

I think some of you may have misinterpreted what this article says. It just doesn't mention the turnstile-jumping, but it does say he ran to catch the train. Can you visualize that he jumped the turnstile during that run?
If you reread this article, will you find anywhere that the poor victim DID NOT jump the turnstile?

There's really nothing here that is significantly different from the original reports. The jacket is still a jacket, the confrontation happened as previously reported, and the killing gunshots are the same.

I, of course, agree that the police made a deadly mistake, but they were not mistaken in what they did. No one ever will act in a "usual" or completely rational manner (to everyone but the officers involved)in a situation where the bad guy fits 95% of the profile of a bomber. There is no time for questions, only instant action to attempt to stop the bomb from exploding.

Firing ten shots at someone's head at close range sounds adrenaline-driven, but so what? The officer's intention was to kill that man instantly, and he did.

Did these officers, acting together and with specific instructions to shoot to instantly kill bombers, just blow somebody away because they had a "license to kill", or do you think they were doing their absolute utmost to stop another bombing and the devastation that could occur?

Remember this: You weren't in their shoes.

[Puppage]

...run from the police.....

Especially, 1 day after the worst attack in England since WWII.

[sheltonmac]

You've forgotten September 11th that fast have you?
Let's not get all high and mighty here, Our beloved Knights in Blue have to crack a few heads over hear every now and then to keep society safe. No need for us reacting to this like a bunch of ACLU jerks and NAACP'ers.

9/11 has become the battle cry of statist cowards. Hasn't the memory of those who died been exploited enough? Honestly, I'm surprised you aren't calling for random house-to-house searches in the middle of the night. If it came to that, I'm sure you'd justify it by shouting, "Remember 9/11!" at anyone who dared to disagree with your police state tactics.

Gridlock is right: "Even if the police are granted wide latitude to whack all swarthy males in jackets, they will still not be able to stop suicide bombing. And then the people will have to live in fear of the terrorists and the police."

[Former Military Chick]

British police bungled de Menezes operation A British television news report into the death of Jean Charles de Menezes, killed on July the 22nd. after the second bomb attack on London, has made some startling revelations that, for the moment, the police are refusing to comment on. In what are described as leaked documents it appears he was already being followed, falsely identified as a suspect bomber, and that at the time he was shot his behaviour and dress were very different to the police's original claims.

First, he did not wear a coat that could have hidden a bomb, and did not enter the underground station running, or jump the barrier. Inside, he picked up a free paper, and only ran when he saw his train. Then he was wrestled to the ground by a security officer, and shot eight times by the police tailing him.