The Case Against Intelligent Design. The Faith That Dare Not Speak Its Name.

The New Republic ^ | 8/11/05 | Jerry Coyne

[hc87]

Exactly eighty years after the Scopes "monkey trial" in Dayton, Tennessee, history is about to repeat itself. In a courtroom in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania in late September, scientists and creationists will square off about whether and how high school students in Dover, Pennsylvania will learn about biological evolution. One would have assumed that these battles were over, but that is to underestimate the fury (and the ingenuity) of creationists scorned.

The Scopes trial of our day--Kitzmiller, et al v. Dover Area School District et al--began innocuously...

[b_sharp]

"There is only one Jesus Christ that was born in Bethlehem, died on a cross, without bones being broken, speared in the side, lots were cast for His clothes, and He rose again on the third day.
Only time I am aware of these prophecies being fulfilled.

With no independent corroboration. With a high probability of the Jesus story being contrived to match the putative prophecy. Other cultures that predate the Bible have very similar stories. Maybe their stories were the true stories?

Do you have direct knowledge of others?

No! Do you? You did say prophecies.

Citations please.

You are the one claiming a fulfilled prophecy. Where might I find that prophecy?

[ml1954]

Please give me an example or two of such experiments.

[DBeers]

A calculation that is rife with inaccuracies and inappropriate initial assumptions.

Facts are not so easily denied -probability conclusively proves evolutionist theory of origination impossible. I am sorry if this destroys your faith in evolution as some sort of secular comforter and anti-religious tool -intelligent design is fact that flies in the face of evolutionistic fallacy...

[ml1954]

probability conclusively proves evolutionist theory of origination impossible.

Sources please.

[PatrickHenry]

This one is scary if true [State law that requires a political offfice holder to be a "born again Christian"].

Can't be true since 1789. The US Constitution, Article VI:

Clause 3: The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

[L,TOWM]

We have genetic, cultural and intellectual constraints that limit that.

I think it peculiar you would invoke "cultural" restraint as part of your respone. A somewhat tacit admission that morals make the world a better place. The source of those morals is what I follow.

It doesn't have to be without hope

I have'nt had a sleepless night contemplating my own death in more than 10 years, b. I have'nt passed out in a drunken or stoned stupor to shut my mind off in over 20 years, sir.

If you are comfortable with the end of all we know and the prospect of nothing else for eternity, good for you. It did'nt work for me.

Let me restate:

MY life without hope was rather bleak.

[pby]

Several states used to required office holders to pass a Christian religous test.

Now, I believe, that several state constitutions (like PA, TX, MD, NC, etc.) only require the belief in God or a "Supreme Being" (with Supreme Being=God).

[pby]

States used to have religous tests...check out MD (and others). It/They were very discriminatory.

Now, states like TX, MD, PA, NC, and so on, require that an office holder believe in God or a Supreme Being.

[L,TOWM]

http://www.seti.org/site/pp.asp?c=ktJ2J9MMIsE&b=178025

http://www.sukidog.com/jpierre/strings/extradim.htm

http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/age.html

Now, these may not be experiments, but they are explorations, postulates, ideas, DREAMS that are out there for gifted people to contemplate, test, prove or disprove as their skills and knowledge gathering dictate.

Is a "yes" or "no" answer to ID in other dimensions, SETI, or beyond the area of the universe containing physical matter?

I don't know. I hope we never stop looking until we find out everything there is to find out.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Several states used to required office holders to pass a Christian religous test.

Now, I believe, that several state constitutions (like PA, TX, MD, NC, etc.) only require the belief in God or a "Supreme Being" (with Supreme Being=God)."

None of these would pass Constitutional muster if actually enforced. These requirements are relics of the theocratic tendencies of some of those states founders. It is not something to brag about.

[Dimensio]

You've got me there if this has been upheld in the courts.

I've never heard of a state law requiring that a person be a born-again Christian in order to hold office (such a requirement would unquestionably violate Article III of the US Constitution). South Carolina tried to mandate belief in a "supreme being", but despite them recently spending hundreds of thousands of dollars in court, that clause of their state constitution was tossed out.

[Dimensio]

None of these would pass Constitutional muster if actually enforced.

Didn't stop SC from fighting tooth and nail over it. Some people's desire to impose theocracy really frightens me, especially when they actually hold positions of power.

[DBeers]

Sources please.

Basic statistics... Take the complexity of an evolved form and statistically determine permutations required to accomodate the probabilities associated with its evolution from a simple form and set this against time and the smallest accomodation for periods between natural selection and or mutation required -the answer as to time and or populations required far exceeds time and populations available... hence, evolution may adequately describe changes observed in many species but not account for orgination of many species from one...

A Mathematical Proof of Intelligent Design In Nature

[Dimensio]

He provided it earlier.

In addition to falsely requiring a specific method for life origins (evolution doesn't care how life came to exist, so it's a faulty premise to start with), the "proof" is a statistical calculation. Unfortunately, there's no accounting for the source of the starting variables, meaning that the end result is useless.

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Didn't stop SC from fighting tooth and nail over it. Some people's desire to impose theocracy really frightens me, especially when they actually hold positions of power."

Agreed.

The SC case demonstrates the point that these parts of the state Constitutions are not in line with the federal Constitution. The reason the other states still have similar provisions is they must not be enforcing it and nobody has had a chance to bring the these provisions to a constitutional test.

[bobdsmith]

Your link seems to be addressing life from non-life. Not whether one species can evolve from another species. The mathematical calculations only involve spontaneous formation of proteins. This has nothing to do with evolution.

It is also not a mathematical proof at all. The section marked "Mathematical Proof Of The Intelligent Design Of Proteins" just shows that the author has no idea what a mathematical proof entails. More accurately the author has made a statistical calulation based on a number of assumptions, and interpreted the result in a certain way. That isn't a mathematical proof.

Mathematical proofs cannot be disproved. Yet the article makes it clear that the validity of the calculation is only based on current knowledge:

Going further in our proof: There are no known laws (or properties) of physics or chemistry in nature, which would have been sufficient, by themselves, to originally dictate the sequential order of the amino acids in functional classes of proteins adequate to sustain life

To claim this is part of a mathematical proof is just mathematical heresy. I mean read it - what does any of the above have to do with maths?

[pby]

Early historians Josephus, Suetonius, Tacitus, Pliny and Younger all recorded events of Jesus's life.

Many historians agree in regard to the historical documentation in regard to Jesus's crucifixion and resurrection. Historically, the tomb was empty on the third day.

The Apostles began preaching about Jesus's resurrection shortly after it happened, in the place that the crucifixion ocurred. Christianity spread quickly as a result. Christ's dead body would have ended the claim of resurrection and Christianity...But of course, there was no dead body. His resurrected body was seen by many believers, unbelievers and skeptics.

To which stories do you refer?

Do they have a Christ who was historically documented and also recorded as crucified, buried and rose again (in accordance with details from hundreds and thousands years old prophecy)?

"Where might I find that prophecy?"

Zechariah 11:12: 11:13; 12:10; Isaiah 50:6; 60:3; Isaiah 55:7; 53:5; Psalm 22:16; 22:18; 22:1; 69:1; 69:9; 31:5; 34:20; Amos 8:9; Isaiah 53:9; Numbers 24:17; Micah 5:2; Psalm 72:10; and Hosea 6:2.

[pby]

Not bragging...just supplying the evidence that was requested by another that Christianity has been, and is, imposed in the US.

[DBeers]

Your link seems to be addressing life from non-life. Not whether one species can evolve from another species. The mathematical calculations only involve spontaneous formation of proteins. This has nothing to do with evolution...

LOL -what is DNA? The complexity of DNA -the blueprint... IF DNA has nothing to do with evolution -what does?

[CarolinaGuitarman]

"Not bragging...just supplying the evidence that was requested by another that Christianity has been, and is, imposed in the US."

In direct violation of the US Constitution. Where is it actually enforced now? Having provisions in the state Constitutions does not mean that anybody is taking it seriously. SC tried to make an issue of it and look what happened to that; they lost.

And do you think it is fine to impose Christianity? Is that your position?