Parents sue St. Luke's over unwanted medical treatment

KTVB News ^ | Tuesday, August 9, 2005 | Associated Press

[msjhall]

BOISE --- Back in 2002, Corissa Mueller took her then five-week-old daughter Taige to St. Luke's hospital.

Corissa believed the little girl had a cold, but the doctor thought it was more.

He requested a spinal tap and antibiotics for what the hospital says was a five to ten percent chance the little girl had meningitis. Corissa refused treatment.

Police were called and her little girl was taken away.

Today, three years later, the Muellers were in federal court with a claim against Saint Luke’s, Child Protective Services, the doctor and three police officers.

[GatorGirl]

What are you talking about? The cops were called because the parents refused to allow the test. Without the test, there's no certainty it's meningitis. Testing the spinal fluid is the only way. To get the fluid they had to puncture the baby's spinal cord. The parents were not going to allow that. You're agreeing that the child should be tested against the parents' will by what means? The hospital staff making a citizen's arrest? Bodily removal by orderlies?

[Diplomat]

My error, I see we completely agree. I had the post up and then left and came back and clicked post without reviewing the current threads. I'm glad your daughter was cured and that you were her mom and not the woman in this article.

[Brilliant]

What's you're point? I never said they should have done what they did. In fact, I said the opposite. But I said that if the doctor had done the test, and confirmed the virus, then he would have been justified in calling the cops if the parents refused treatment. What part are you disagreeing with?

[vrwc0915]

16. When the lab results came back all negative and normal, Corissa contacted Dr.
Erickson and discussed her progress further. At approximately 12:23 a.m., on August 13, 2003,
following administration of fluids to her daughter, Taige's temperature had dropped to 98.9° F.
THUS GIVING THE MOM INFORMATION to make a reasonable descision that HER child did not have meningitis and refuse a potentialy DEADLY test. Those of you siding with the MD here really scare me.

[GatorGirl]

NONE of those tests would disclose meningitis. NONE of them!

If there was even a slim chance my five week old had meningitis, I'd allow the tap. In fact, I allowed a tap on an eight week old, and it saved her life.

Perhaps I'm biased and I'm glad this particular child is fine, but I'm not one to mess around with the lives of babies. These parents are idiots!!

[GatorGirl]

I think the whole controversy in this case is the fact that the hospital recommended the tap and the parents refused so the cops were called. There apparently were other tests done but only a spinal tap would reveal meningitis.

The doctor should have let them go, but I'm sure he felt he'd get sued anyway and he might as well attempt to preserve a child's life if she indeed had that terrible disease. To me, this lawsuit is ridiculous! They should simply be thankful that their daughter is all right.

I think we've been doing that dance where you come up on someone heading in the opposite direction and neither of you can decide to move left or right. I'm sorry if I came on too strong, but I was in this exact situation with an eight week old who did in fact have meningitis and I can't imagine parents risking their child's life in this fashion.

I've got to run to tuck the kiddies in. School night, ya know. Friends?

[codercpc]

God Bless your daughter!!!

Thanks for the info.

[Brilliant]

I agree with you then.

[Polybius]

So you support the course of action taken by the MD and CPS? Tell me what gives you the right to decide between risk of death from lumbar puncture or meningitis in place of the parents? The parents wanted to wait a reasonable time before authorizing more invasive and risky intervention.

Tell that to a Judge and see how far you get.

What are the risks of playing Russian roulette with one live round in a six chambered revolver?

If, in my opinion, I decide that the risks are zero percent instead of 16.6%, would a Judge allow me to play Russian Roulette with my child?

The "risk of death" of untreated meningitis is not a matter of opinion. The "risk of death" from untreated meningitis is a well documented scietinfic fact.

The "risk of death" from untreated meningitis is almost 100% for Haemophilus influenzae meningitis, 100% for pneumococcal meningitis and "only" 75% to 80% for meningococcal meningitis.

In the 1920s, 77 of 78 children at Boston Children's Hospital who had Haemophilus influenzae meningitis died. The prognosis for untreated pneumococcal meningitis was equally bleak: of 300 patients, all died. In the first decade of the 20th century, untreated meningococcal meningitis was associated with a mortality rate of 75 to 80 percent.

By contrast, the scientific literature documents a 0.3% rate of significant complications for lumbar punctures (spinal taps). That turns out to be less than one case in every 300 cases.

In regards to "waiting a reasonable amount of time", in the case of meningitis, that makes as much sense as saying that you are going to "wait a reasonable amount of time" before you take a child out of the striking range of a rattlesnake.

It takes a very short time between the point when bacterial meningitis is treatable and the point when it kills you.

See GovernmentShrinker's Post 46:

"To: Polybius.......... Meningitis can move with frightening speed. A friend of mine had a sister die of meningococcal meningitis. The sister was at college, a couple of hours from home. First she thought she just had a cold, but it got worse so the next day she went to the college clinic. The clinic transferred her to a hospital immediately, thinking she had the flu but concerned that it was a bad case, since she had a high fever. The clinic called the parents right away to notify them that their daughter had been admitted to the hospital with flu symptoms. The parents jumped in their car and took off for the hospital. Their daughter was already dead by the time they got there............... 46 posted on 08/10/2005 1:45:33 PM PDT by GovernmentShrinker

The bottom line is that the probability of significant spinal tap complications is documented in the scientific literature as 0.3% (less than one case out of 300) but the mortality rate for untreated bacterial meningitis is documented in the scientific literature at close to 100%.

This child was estimated to have had a 5% to 10% chance of having meningitis and the parents are not challenging that estimate. The parents are only challanging that they should have been the ones to weigh the risks between meningitis and a spinal tap.

Well, sorry Charlie, but the odds for that choice have already been established by cold, hard scientific data.

The fact that the parents were utterly ignorant of those odds does not change them one bit.

Society has long ago decided that it has a right to overrule parents when parents are putting their children at an unacceptable risk of death.

No Judge in America is going to allow a parent, through ignorance, to make a choice that puts their child at a 5% to 10% chance of certain death when the alternative is taking a 0.3% chance of significant injury.

[Polybius]

This wasn't thought of in the ER, it was an idea that my wife brought up to her neurologist 7 days after she entered the hospital. How often does one experience the symptoms of bacterial meningitis for 7 days and survive?

You don't.

Once you get bacterial meningitis, you are dead meat unless you get adequate treatment fast. Even then, the disease is still dangerous.

What must be kept in mind, however, is that Mother Nature is an evil Mother and things are not always as they seem.

A child may start out with a viral pneumonia that later sets him up for a bacterial pneumonia on top of that.

Likewise, a child may start out with a run-of-the-mill flu that later makes him more susceptible to get a bacterial meningitis.

I spend my working days trying to outguess that evil Mother.

Is that narrowed sigmoid colon on the CT really just diverticulitis or is there a colon carcinoma hiding in there?

Is that still a viral pneumonia in that kid or has he developed a superimposed bacterial pneumonia?

Is that 80 year old hiding a pneumonia under that congestive heart failure?

If the pneumonia in the 60 year old a simple pneumonia or a post obstructive pneumonia caused by a lung cancer now hidden by the pneumonia?

[sarasmom]

Trust your doctors diagnosis completely do you?
You believe he saved your childs life, even at the expense of her teeth...after all, thats what all the medical charts say, or do they?
Weird that in Florida I was "diagnosed" with meningitis supposedly, and all I can remember the nurses saying was encephalitis, and about the same time they came out with some new disease that was killing horses.
I have no idea what I actually had.It was bad, and I was very ill for a long time.
Goodness knows I never will, unless I privately pay for extensive blood tests, if I could ever find a doctor willing to order them just to satisfy my lingering curiosity.

[vrwc0915]

For those parents that are concerned about this type of thing this site is a good read but heartbreaking
http://prayforkatie.blogspot.com/

[Polybius]

For those parents that are concerned about this type of thing this site is a good read but heartbreaking http://prayforkatie.blogspot.com/

The link you provided was about a child with Hodgkin's Disease that was taken by Child Protective Services for treatment.

With treatment, Hodgkin's Disease currently has approximately an 85% cure rate.

Without treatment, Hodgkin's Disease will be 100% fatal.

Is it your position that parents should be allowed by society to decide whether or not to withold treatment and condemn their children to death in such cases?

[vrwc0915]

I see that you are fond of statistics:
According to a 2000 National Academy of Sciences report, medical errors cause more than 98,000 deaths a year
44,000 to 98,000 deaths annually from medical errors (Institute of Medicine)

These stats are secondary to my point, it seems like you have a problem with people questioning MD's or getting second opinions.

Furthermore the link I provided there is credible information that the girl no longer had Hodgkin's.

The original case that started the thread the doctor was wrong the girl did not have meningitis yet she was kidnapped from her parents and forced to undergo a procedure that has the potential to cause death or disability and you think this is ok.

So answer me truthfully is it ego, fear of lawsuit, or genuine concern for patients that make you feel like someone who makes an informed decision against a MD's wishes deserves to have their children kidnapped under the color of law? I think that if a parent is refusing treatment that will in a acute setting result in death rapidly if immediate intervention is not preformed than there are some rare cases where MD's should intervene preforming a LP after a child's symptoms have lessened is not one of them, taking your child to a different doctor for a second opinion for treatment of Hogdkin's is not one I don't think either of us are going to agree so I will leave it at that.

[kx9088]

Back to the topic at hand:
High fever, headache, and stiff neck are common symptoms of meningitis in anyone over the age of 2 years. These symptoms can develop over several hours, or they may take 1 to 2 days. Other symptoms may include nausea, vomiting, discomfort looking into bright lights, confusion, and sleepiness. In newborns and small infants, the classic symptoms of fever, headache, and neck stiffness may be absent or difficult to detect, and the infant may only appear slow or inactive, or be irritable, have vomiting, or be feeding poorly. As the disease progresses, patients of any age may have seizures.

These are the symptoms of Bacterial Meningitis, if they tested anyone that had these when they came into the hospital, my wife would have a spinal tap at least twice a month. Heck, I get these symptoms a few times a year too.

How common is bacterial meningitis?
In the United States, bacterial meningitis is relatively rare and usually occurs in isolated cases. Clusters of more than a few cases are uncommon.
OMG! Every kid that has a fever, a headache and a cold has to have a spinal tap! ASAP!

[Polybius]

I see that you are fond of statistics: According to a 2000 National Academy of Sciences report, medical errors cause more than 98,000 deaths a year 44,000 to 98,000 deaths annually from medical errors (Institute of Medicine)

There is a difference between scientific data and statistics.

"Statistics", like political "push polls" can be fudged by manipulating how you define what your are loking for.

For example, in the often quote Left-wing claim that the Iraq War "killed 100,000 Iraqi civilians", statisticians took Saddam era claims of pre-war civilian death rates, compared them to a death rate they calculated themselves and then came up with the "excess deaths caused by the Iraq War" even thought their post-war numbers even included Uncle Mohammed slipping in the bathtub and breaking his neck.

The death rate data for untreated meningitis is different.

There are no word games played with those numbers. As I posted before, back when meningitis was untreatable, the number of dead bodies almost equalled the number of cases.

Having you change the subject with statistics along the lines of "The Iraq War and Bush killed 100,000 Iraqi civilians" tin-foil hat "statistics" claims won't chage that.

These stats are secondary to my point, it seems like you have a problem with people questioning MD's or getting second opinions.

The second or thirty fifth or one thousanth or twenty thousanth medical opinion will be that untreated meningitis approaches a 100% mortality rate.

That is not a "statistic. That is a cold, hard scietific fact.

The Courts recognize that scietific fact just as the Courts recognize that we no longer need to get "second opinions" as to the scientific fact that leaving an infant locked in a car in the summer heat with an internal temperature of 120 degrees will kill the infant.

That is why a recent FR thread reported how a mother was arrested when she decided she was not going to allow fireman to break her car window to get her locked infant but preferred to go home and get her car keys instead.

When medical treatment may or may not help or may cause as much harm as good, the Courts will allow parents to choose.

However, when it comes to such things as treating Hodkin's Lymphoma..........100% death rate without treatment.........85% survival rate with treatment...........The Courts will NOT allow you to condemn your child to death because you have a bee in your bonnet about modern medicine.

Likewise, no Court in the U.S. will allow you or any other parent to subject your child to a 5% to 10% risk of certain death in order to avoid a 0.3% risk of complications.

As an adult, you are perfectly free, through ignorance, to commit suicide.

However, the Courts will not allow, through ignorance, to kill your child.

[GatorGirl]

Hmmm....death, primary teeth. Yeah, I think I made the right choice.

Especially since I developed meningitis as well. And I did have the high fever, stiff neck and sensitivity to light as well as feeling that a truck had parked on my head. So yeah, I'm confident that the evil doctor was right. My husband is also one of those evil life savers and he concurs.

Meningitis and encephalitis (which is the same disease as horses get) have very similar symptoms and both diseases could easily kill you. I think you should stop bitterly second guessing and Florida/doctor bashing and thank your lucky stars that you are alive.

I know that I thank God that I and my child are alive and I"d glady pay for some dental work on primary teeth in exchange for having a healthy, happy, beautiful child. And by the way, her permanent teeth are coming in perfectly and beautifully.

I'm sure our friend Polybius agrees I made the right choice. Thank you Polybius for practing your noble profession in spite of ignoramuses like this couple.

[vrwc0915]

I never indicated that I thought untreated meningitis was not deadly, You have made your point and you are in my opinion a medical tyrant. I do not wish to have this thread turn into a verbal pushing match. So this will be my last post on this.

The original point the attending MD thought the child MAY have meningitis, the mother based on the child's symptoms getting better disagreed, the tyrant did not like having his OPINION questioned so he had the child kidnapped under the color of law and preformed a procedure that has significant risk against the parents wishes.

I wish you well and hope your motivation is the care of your patients and not ego or fear of lawsuit

[GovernmentShrinker]

Maybe these parents are just hopeless knuckleheads, but this conflict might also have been the result of poor communication on the part of the doctors involved. Giving the parents the benefit of the doubt on the knucklehead classification, presumably if the doctors had clearly explained to them both the mortality rate and speed associated with meningitis, and the basis for the estimate of the 5-10% chance that their child had it and the relative risks of a lumbar puncture, and done this before announcing that they intended to treat the child with or without the parents' consent, any remotely reasonable parents would have agreed. But if some rude arrogant doctor (who may be a very nice person when s/he's allowed to get a normal amount of sleep, but that's rarely the case with the residents who do most of the work at hospitals) displays an attitude that s/he's going to take control of your child with or without your consent, perfectly normal parents are likely to immediately go into "like h*ll you are" mode, and instinctively mistrust and oppose anything else that subsequently comes out of the mouths of that doctor and his/her associates.

[GovernmentShrinker]

Probably not the same girl. This girl's father was a banker (in Kentucky). Unfortunately, this lightning-quick progression from cold symptoms to death is all too common with meningitis. IIRC the details of this case correctly, this girl got from her dorm to the college clinic on her own steam sometime in the morning, and was dead before sundown.

What's scary is how this can happen in extremely fit and healthy people. I didn't know this girl personally (only knew her sister) so I don't really know anything about her general health. But a college friend of mine also died of meningitis in her late 20s, while she was a naval officer, and second in command of some huge ship. She was in tip-top physical condition, and still went nearly as fast as my friend's sister, leaving behind an uncomprehending 2 year old son and a devastated husband.