Supreme Court asked to hear witch case

The American Civil Liberties Union has asked the U.S. Supreme Court to review a decision that allows the Chesterfield County Board of Supervisors to exclude a local witch from leading the prayer at open meetings.

The ACLU of Virginia yesterday filed its petition with the court seeking to reverse a Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals decision, said ACLU attorney Rebecca K. Glenberg.

"Our position is that the 4th Circuit did something really extreme in its decision," she said. "It held that it was acceptable for a government body to treat people differently because of religion."

Cynthia Simpson, a witch who lives in Chesterfield, requested in 2002 to be placed on a list of religious leaders invited to deliver the invocation at meetings of the Board of Supervisors. So far, her request has been denied.

And Constantine, though convinced of Christianity's sincerity and despite his own personal conversion, had to comply with pagan traditions

Rome accepted many different religions, and all Constantine did was make Christianity one of the accepted religions. Of course he then began the immediate persecution of pagans and Christians who believed differently, which lasted until Julian, who also brought back exiled Chrisians (really angering the local church powers). They later started persecuting pagans again, and when that got old started persecuting other Christians, with Maximus introducing the charge of heresy.

And 3,500 years later, the Jews' religion survives.

And Hindus with maybe 5,000 years and those into Zoroastrianism, at about 3,700 years. It is interesting that one of the reasons Jews still survive is because of a pagan, Cyrus the Great, who did not believe in forcing his religion on conquered territories. Yes, the concepts of human rights and religious freedom are not Christian.

On second thought, given the precincts you gents obviously frequent, perhaps that's not a safe question

I attended 9/11 services at the very cathedral where Martin Luther defended his theses. How about you?

[Constantine] began the immediate persecution of pagans and Christians who believed differently

Constantine didn't even dare let himself be baptized until he was nearly on his death bed for fear he would be torn asunder by the pagans in Rome.

And we won't even talk about Julian, the last of the non-Christian emperors of Rome.

I doubt that Christians persecuted pagans to nearly the same degree pagans persecuted Christians in the centuries following Christ's resurrection. I won't recount the hundreds of stories of martyrs torn to pieces by wild animals, or flayed to the bone for the amusement of Roman crowds. No, that bit of reverse victimization won't stand.

And Hindus with maybe 5,000 years and those into Zoroastrianism, at about 3,700 years.

See a lot of Zoroastrians, do ya? Hinduism, for all its tenacity, didn't have much evangelizing power, since even today it hasn't spread very far from its origins. And it can hardly be said to have defined much of Western civilization, can it?

the concepts of human rights and religious freedom are not Christian.

They may not have originated with Christianity, but they most certainly are Christian. They're not particularly Judaic, especially the one about religious freedom. But Christianity certainly promotes human rights, subject to -- as with all things -- the will of God.

I attended 9/11 services at the very cathedral where Martin Luther defended his theses. How about you?

I did not attend 9/11 services at the very cathedral where Martin Luther defended his theses. Since he was forced to defend them on numerous occasions, I'm not sure if you're talking about Wittenberg, Augsburg, or Heidelberg. However, I did not attend 9/11 services at any of those cathedrals.

Please don't tell the Pope.

Hinduism, for all its tenacity, didn't have much evangelizing power, since even today it hasn't spread very far from its origins.

Not all religions are evangelistic. They're perfectly content to let the infidels find their way to hell.

But Christianity certainly promotes human rights, subject to -- as with all things -- the will of God.

Subject to the current power's interpretation of the will of God. Therefore we have persecution of the Jews, pagans and whatever Christian sect is not currently in power.

I'm not sure if you're talking about Wittenberg, Augsburg, or Heidelberg.

Really good with history and geography, aren't you? Although Luther defended his theses in Heidelberg at the Augustinian convention, Heidelberg doesn't even have a cathedral, so you can safely eliminate that one.

He didn't officially defend his theses in Wittenberg (and he nailed them to the Schlosskirche, or castle church, not a cathedral). Augsburg is more well known as the place where the Church was scheduled to receive Luther's submission, not as a famous place for defense of his theses.

You forgot the most important and famous one, after which the church declaredLuther vogelfrei, that anyone could kill the heretic without sin (God's will, I guess).

Not all religions are evangelistic. They're perfectly content to let the infidels find their way to hell.

Whereas Christianity would rather see them regain their rightful place in Heaven.

Subject to the current power's interpretation of the will of God. Therefore we have persecution of the Jews, pagans and whatever Christian sect is not currently in power.

I don't see any "persecution" of Jews, pagans, or Christians by other Christians. I do see persecution of Christians by non-Christians. I see Christians righteously shunning the heretical gibberish of fly-by-night sects. I see Jews persecuted just about everywhere, by "enlightened" humanists. But I must have missed the worldwide crusade against the infidels. And I'm on the Templars' mailing list!

The subtlety of my sarcasm must have been lost on you. And your zeal is corroding your credibility:

The Heiliggeistkirche city cathedral [in Heidelberg] is only one of many large and small churches, but definitely the one with the most interesting history. During the dark ages, it was the shelter of the Bibliotheka Palatina, Germany's oldest library ... * You can get a great view of the Heiliggeistkirche, Old Town, and the Neckar river bridge from the castle (Schloss Heidelberge). -- from http://wikitravel.org/en/Heidelberg

It was not until April 1518, a half year after the publication of the theses, that Luther was invited to Heidelberg for a debate. -- from http://www.martinluther.info/debates/index.html.

Hate displaces reason.

He didn't officially defend his theses in Wittenberg (and he nailed them to the Schlosskirche, or castle church, not a cathedral).

What do you mean by "officially"?

Augsburg is more well known as the place where the Church was scheduled to receive Luther's submission, not as a famous place for defense of his theses.

Augsburg is also well known as the location of the most famous of the Protestant Confessions, drafted by a close friend of Luther's as a way of explaining his Theses to the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V.

You forgot the most important and famous one, after which the church declaredLuther vogelfrei, that anyone could kill the heretic without sin (God's will, I guess).

I don't know that God declared Luther vogelfrei. I doubt the word ever entered His vocabulary. But the Catholic Church certainly did excommunicate him as a heretic.

I'm so humbled by your brilliant rebuttal that I swear to subsist from here onward on a Diet of Worms.

I don't see any "persecution" of Jews, pagans, or Christians by other Christians.

Because Christians don't hold unlimited power anymore, at least since Charles Taylor was deposed.

And your zeal is corroding your credibility:

Looking up ill-informed tourist guides now?

"Heiliggeistkirche" means "Holy Ghost Church." It is not a cathedral, but a church. The German word for cathedral is "Dom." No German says "Dom Heiliggeist" or "Heidelberger Dom." Martin Luther defended his theses in Heidelberg at the Augustinian conference, but it wasn't in any cathedral. My best bet would be that he did it at the university.

You do not know who you are messing with. Do NOT deign to teach me, who LIVED IN HEIDELBERG FOR TEN YEARS, anything about Heidelberg.

BTW, the best view of the town is from across the river from the Heiligenberg, just below the kloster ruins and the old Nazi amphitheater. If you're up for the exercise, walk the Philosophenweg up.

Hate displaces reason.

Google does not replace experience.

I'm so humbled by your brilliant rebuttal that I swear to subsist from here onward on a Diet of Worms.

Ah, you did your research and now know about the Reichstag. That would mean I'm talking about St. Peter's Cathedral, "Dom St. Peter" in German, or more commonly just the "Wormser Dom."

Are you listening to yourself? You're reduced to quibbling over minutiae. Is the cathedral in Heidelberg a "church" or a "cathedral?" Did Luther "officially" defend his Theses in Wittemberg or did he just post them and run? Was the Augustinian Council a "defense" or merely an "apologia"?

Does it occur to you that I intentionally excluded the Diet of Worms, since it was so obviously what you were looking for, and to demonstrate that your narrow view of history does not allow you to think outside your own preconceptions? In any case, it would be unlikely that I would be familiar with Luther and not know about Worms.

Your credibility is such that I would trust a matchbook cover for its geographic lessons before I would trust you. I don't care if you were mayor of Casterbridge for half a century.

Was the Augustinian Council a "defense" or merely an "apologia"?

Not an issue. I couldn't have been talking about Heidelberg because there's no cathedral there. You tried to be smart, but you blew it.

Does it occur to you that I intentionally excluded the Diet of Worms, since it was so obviously what you were looking for,

I thought of it as a possibility, but rejected it because of your previous bone-headedness.

Your credibility is such that I would trust a matchbook cover for its geographic lessons before I would trust you.

I don't really care about my credibility with a person who doesn't know his history or geography.

BTW, the Heiliggeistkirche also has a history of Christian intolerance of other Christians, although no one got killed that time. But in a strange twist of fate, that helped save Heidelberg from destruction in WWII.

I don't care if you were mayor of Casterbridge for half a century.

Is that ignorance again, or are you talking about Hardy?

I couldn't have been talking about Heidelberg because there's no cathedral there.

The web guide says there is. You say there isn't. You have no credibility. The web guide does. Where you contradict the web guide, I'll believe it before you.

You tried to be smart, but you blew it.

I tried to be thorough. You "defeated" me by quibbling over terms, and by asserting your opinion as though it is fact. As I said, I'll take the web guide's word over yours.

I thought of it as a possibility, but rejected it because of your previous bone-headedness.

You shouldn't have.

I don't really care about my credibility with a person who doesn't know his history or geography.

Your assertion that you attended 9/11 services and that you know diddly squat about Heidelberg or any other German word depends entirely upon your credibility. I could easily dismiss your arguments by simply refusing to believe them. When you demonstrate the paucity of knowledge you have, I am well within my rights to do so.

Is that ignorance again, or are you talking about Hardy?

I wasn't talking about Hardy. I was using the title of one of his novels as a convenient phrase to show my contempt for your claims about living in Heidelberg.

Even you should be able to comprehend how far this thread has drifted from its original purpose, and how meager the bickering has become. Since no real light has been shed on any aspect of this discussion for the last 100 posts or so, why don't we just let this die a natural death?

The web guide says there is. You say there isn't. You have no credibility. The web guide does. Where you contradict the web guide, I'll believe it before you.

You put your credibility in the wrong place. Look at what the city of Heidelberg says. Since you obviously can't read German, you're looking for the word "Dom," and in the context of Heidelberg having a cathedral, you're specifically looking for "Heidelberger Dom." See it there? I didn't think so.

As I said, I'll take the web guide's word over yours.

And you'll be wrong, as usual. Did the guide mention the best spot for a view of the town, the klosterruine, the amphitheater? How about a current guide, which might show the second Heidelberg Druckmaschine building across from the Hauptbahnhof, but I know it was a Bundespost building until a few years ago. Did you know the PX is across the tracks from the Hauptbahnhof? Find the location known to the American locals as the "End of the World." As far as Worms, tell me what a common special is at the Sportsplatz Gasthaus between Rheindürkheim and Ibersheim. Go ahead, verify if you have the ability.

I could easily dismiss your arguments by simply refusing to believe them. When you demonstrate the paucity of knowledge you have, I am well within my rights to do so.

Sie glauben, daß ich keine Glaubwürdigkeit habe, Pappnase? Learn German and read for yourself, after you've researched the above questions.

1) I am convinced that you are merely prolonging this thread because you are an attention whore on a par with the Wiccan twirp who was the original subject;

2) I can Babelfish with the best of them, and your German wasn't particularly difficult to translate even without electronic assistance ("Pappnase"??? Who writes your material, Walt Disney?). But is seems that obscure references to the sights in Heidelberg have little bearing on the subject of the thread, so I wonder how much "research" I would be willing to do on a subject so remotely ancillary.

3) The best view in Heidelberg is likely a matter of opinion. But in your arrogance, you make your statement as though it is fact. That alone undermines your credibility as a spokesman for your cause, since you apparently can't differentiate between subjective and objective reality. I'm not interested in seeing the world through your lens.

4) What possible purpose would be served by my rising to your schoolyard challenge? ( tell me what a common special is at the Sportsplatz Gasthaus between Rheindürkheim and Ibersheim. ) What's next? "My dad can beat up your dad"? Is this what passes for intellectual riposte in your salon?

If you have anything relevant to say, say it. If you want to natter over picayune details of German geography or discuss the menu at the local hofbrauhaus, try www.nerds-sind-wir.com.

German wasn't particularly difficult to translate even without electronic assistance ("Pappnase"??? Who writes your material, Walt Disney?).

I used that word since it's a slang derogatory term, not translated well by online services, and requiring a bit of extra effort on your part if you wanted to find out what it means.

Is this what passes for intellectual riposte in your salon?

It's to remind you not to trust online travel guides, and that people who have lived there for a decade generally know more than the online travel guides you trust so much. I'm sure there are many on FR who could validate all except probably the last of those things I mentioned (answer: horse).

Face it, you put your nose into a subject about which you know nothing, trying to survive on quick web searches of the subjects. Your knowledge of Wicca is even more lacking.

you put your nose into a subject about which you know nothing,

My knowledge of the subject dwarfs your own, with the possible exception of the horsemeat sandwiches at the Gasthaus.

trying to survive on quick web searches of the subjects.

The web is useful for validation, but not particularly valuable for education. I use it regularly as a fact-checker. You might try it. It would help you look less the fool.

Your knowledge of Wicca is even more lacking.

Yes, it is. Intentionally. I have no desire to know the slightest THING about Wicca. Or Reiki. Or Karmic Tuning. Or Karmic Tuna. Or any of the other countless epigones that masquerade as religion these days. They are laughable, comic buffonery that satisfies some childish need to appear "different," but still assauge the spiritual cravings most people have. They come and go, a hundred of them every year, none with any staying power or real depth. If I'm going to devote my time to the study of spirituality, the Bible offers me plenty of stimulus. There's a lifetime of study in its pages, and its rewards are infinitely greater.

My knowledge of the subject dwarfs your own

So says the man who thinks Heidelberg has a cathedral.

I use it regularly as a fact-checker.

Yet you apparently find incorrect sources. Might want to change.

Yes, it is. Intentionally. I have no desire to know the slightest THING about Wicca.

Which is why you come off looking so ignorant in the face of those of us who have bothered to learn something about it. And now you inform us that your ignorance is purposeful. I know only a minority of Christians are ignorant and narrow-minded, but stereotypes tend to have some factual justification behind them. I have found the source.

So says the man who thinks Heidelberg has a cathedral.

That would also apply to the man who wrote the web tour guide. Have you written a web tour guide? Does anyone consult you for travel information at all? Are you Zuggat's equine culinary expert? Have you done much besides run your mouth?

Yet you apparently find incorrect sources.

"Incorrect" by your assertion. Not by any source that's trustworthy.

Which is why you come off looking so ignorant in the face of those of us who have bothered to learn something about it.

That's certainly one way of looking at it. Or "those of us who have bothered to learn something about it" could be seen as moonbats for dabbling in idiocy.

And now you inform us that your ignorance is purposeful.

There are certain behaviors that do not bear closer scrutiny. I don't need to know much about Mazola parties and human sacrifice to know I don't want much to do with them. I certainly don't regret remaining willfully ignorant of such subjects. In fact, I wear it as a badge of honor. There is an old warning: Being too "open-minded" is a good way for your brains to fall out.

... stereotypes tend to have some factual justification behind them.

The stereotype I have of Wiccans is of vacuous girlie-men, sandal-wearing bong scrapers, and hare-brained pansies with bladder dysfunction. Which is probably not fair or accurate.

Some of them probably don't have bladder problems.

I have found the source.

Glory, Hallelujah!

That would also apply to the man who wrote the web tour guide. Have you written a web tour guide?

Actually, I have, for Heidelberg. I can also read the web site of the city of Heidelberg (I sent you a link) to see what it's called. Hmmm, who to trust: a site in English run by people who may have never been there, or the site of the city that runs the church. You are not very good at judging the quality of your sources. Personally, I believe the sign in the glass box next to the church door that calls it a church.

Are you Zuggat's equine culinary expert?

Nope, I know pretty much nothing about horses except that they taste good.

Or "those of us who have bothered to learn something about it" could be seen as moonbats for dabbling in idiocy.

Or looking about it another way, I'm capable of intelligently discussing Christianity, even defending it where it deserves, with a Wiccan or Muslim.

Which is probably not fair or accurate.

Those do exist. You find all types in any religion. I also know a pretty standard-looking ex-Army "manly-man" with generally conservative politics and lifestyle who's Wiccan.

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