Posted on 08/05/2005 5:08:42 AM PDT by OESY
Today--or August 6 in Japan--is the 60th anniversary of the dropping of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima, which killed outright an estimated 80,000 Japanese and hastened World War II to its conclusion on August 15. Those of us who belong to the postwar generations tend to regard the occasion as a somber, even shameful, one. But that's not how the generation of Americans who actually fought the war saw it. And if we're going to reflect seriously about the bomb, we ought first to think about it as they did.
...No surprise, then, that when news of the bomb reached Lt. Fussell and his men, they had no misgivings about its use: "...We were going to live."...
What about Japanese lives?... Since the ratio of Japanese to American combat fatalities ran about four to one, a mainland invasion could have resulted in millions of Japanese deaths--and that's not counting civilians....
Also true is that the threat nuclear weapons pose today is probably greater than ever before. That's not because they're more plentiful--thanks to the 2002 Moscow Treaty (negotiated by John Bolton), U.S. and Russian arsenals are being cut to levels not seen in 40 years. It's because nuclear know-how and technology have fallen into the hands of men such as A.Q. Khan and Kim Jong Il, and they, in turn, are but one degree of separation away from the jihadists who may someday detonate a bomb in Times or Trafalgar Square....
Looking back after 60 years, who cannot be grateful that it was Truman who had the bomb, and not Hitler or Tojo or Stalin? And looking forward, who can seriously doubt the need for might always to remain in the hands of right? That is the enduring lesson of Hiroshima, and it is one we ignore at our peril.
(Excerpt) Read more at opinionjournal.com ...
Likewise, looking back only 20 years, who cannot be grateful that President Reagan had the known military might behind him to leave the table at Reykjavik and so cause the USSR to seek to appease the USA. Reagan and Gorbachov were the opposite of "Munich". It was the evil that now had to appease the good.
>.I don't think this is quite true. You're either a pacifist, a Japanese -American, a Democrat, or ignorant of what you speak. In the end, they're all some form of "group".
Another assumption. Do a search on my 200 or so posts, and you'll see I'm not what you assume..
I'm American of hispanic descent, a conservative (former republican), and educated on this issue (and others).
Groupthink can be defined this way: Take 10 people, put them toghether, bring up a topic on which they have little information, ask them to form a consensus on it, and there you have it -- groupthink. Verifiable facts, solid logic, and reasonableness have nothing to do with groupthink. (It's what libs and stars do quite often...)
Having an education, researching topics, and forming one's own belief system is not groupthink. Having a belief system is similar to the beliefs of others, it's not groupthink -- it merely means one agrees with or has a similar belief system as others.
Obviously from this tread, most of the people here fall into the groupthink category. Most fall into the "abomb is a sacrament" groupthink..
Another symptom of this groupthink is the expasperated attacks on character in place of solid rebuttals or arguments. Look back through the posts and you'll see plenty of insults, but little substance...
Stop following the ideologues on this issue. One can be conservative and not blindly follow other conservatives and Republicans...
I have never implied that. NEVER. I was talking specifically about atom bombs, not the general policies and practice of the U.S. Military. In fact, I made a point of recognizing that the US troops were making a massive and conscientious effort to protect Iraqi noncombatants, despite the Islamo-thugs' unceasing attempts to hide themselves behind and among civilians.
If you will take up the time to search my previous posts, you will see that I emphasized that
If you're going to criticize me, have the courtesy to criticize me for something I said, not for something I didn't say.
(yawn)
You're not as educated on this issue as thorough as you tend to believe. You congratulate your own ignorance, as well as grandly delude yourself.
Groupthink can be defined this way:
"Groupthink is not the topic, the wisdom of forcing the Empire of Japan to surrender, without invasion, by dropping two atomic weapons is. You have couched your position in moral terms, yet you fail to recognize the moral failure of the Japanese government for attempting to conquer Asia. Therefore; Is the freedom of 100's of millions of Asian civilians worth the lives of a hundred thousand Japanese civilians? The answer is a yes beyond a doubt.
Oh?
It's the fact that the decision-makers decided to indiscriminately kill civilians as a means to an end.
That statement, posted by you, seems to contradict your objections to being considered a kind of modern day "Tokyo Rose, or is it a "Tokyo Mrs. Don-o"?
1) attacks on civilians are specifically prohibited by the UCMJ,
There wasn't a UCMJ in WWII. Each service had its own laws and regulations. Furthermore, the UCMJ was prompted by the horrors committed by the Sons of Nippon and the German Super Race in the name of the state and color of authority. It was not prompted by the actions of our own troops.
You A-bomb bashers need to get your facts in a row before you start taking pot-shots at history.
That's a good point. A friend of mine who was in PsyOps made that point to me as well.
But I'd like to learn more about how that was intended to work, and how it did work. (Now think this through with me, I really am trying to get a realistic picture of this.)
Didn't the neighborhood security cadres pick up the leaflets before many people saw them?
I understand that a number of cities were leafletted a number of times with the bomb warnings. In the run-up to the bombing of Hiroshima, 30 or more cities were leafletted. But Hiroshima itself hadn't been conventionally bombed since May? So then, wouldn't the people be to the point where they didn't believe the leaflets anymore?
I understand that Japanese WWII-era law imposed fines and imprisonment for worker absenteeism. If that is the case, then if 10, 100, 100,000 people wanted to leave, could they? Wouldn't they be stopped by men with guns?
Like I said, I'm not assigning or assuming U.S. blame here. I'm trying to get a realistic picture. Maybe you can help me. To me, it looks like it has some features in common with a massive hostage situation
By the way, are you aware that Churchill was prepared to use mustard gas on the Germans should they invade England? The gas masks that the British authorities passed out to the general population in 1940 was not to protect the civilians from German gas, but British. Was Churchill "uncivilized"? I think not. Quite the contrary, he knew that the civilized must become as savage as their enemy in order to survive and in surviving, return to being civilized. Such was the genius of leaders like Churchill.
Would Churchill have bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki? I think not, he would have bombed Tokyo and Moscow and he would have been right.
>>You're not as educated on this issue as thorough as you tend to believe.
I never said I was a scholar on it... LOL
But very few have been able to actually argue anything but "my grandpa was gonna head to japan so that makes you a total a$$"...
>>Groupthink is not the topic
I know it's not, I just responded to an individual who presumed I was a leftie troll...
>>, the wisdom of forcing the Empire of Japan to surrender, without invasion, by dropping two atomic weapons is. You have couched your position in moral terms, yet you fail to recognize the moral failure of the Japanese government for attempting to conquer Asia
No, I do not. Did I even defend the Japanese government or military? Not one bit...
>>. Therefore; Is the freedom of 100's of millions of Asian civilians worth the lives of a hundred thousand Japanese civilians? The answer is a yes beyond a doubt.
Easy to to make that decision isn't it? How can 100's of millions of asian civilians die if we attack the japanese MILITARY?? Attacking civilians is not the answer. It may be in your book, but that's just your character flaw...
Well, of course dropping any kind of bomb with the intention of killing civilians is murder. And since murder is intrinsically immoral, and can never be justified by any circumstances or any consequences, no matter how desirable, dropping the atomic bombs was a criminal act. Saying this does not make one an America-hater or a Commie. Rather, those who attempt to justify murder exclude themselves from that community of persons we call Western Civilization.
That's ivory tower thinking. Most human evolution occurs during war. War is the only reason the human brain evolved far beyond that needed to find food. When two tribes have a disagreement, war weighs which side has the more fit genetics and culture, and usually most of the losing side, including the civilians, are killed off. War is really high speed evolution and is what separated humans from more slowly evolving animals. Improvements in genetics or culture that might take thousands of years to be selected for naturally are selected for in a few years of war.
That being said, civilians normally die during war. The recent Iraq war was an oddity. Wars don't usually play out so clean. That can only happen in the rare case when the fight is lopsided.
Don't believe that man has suddenly changed his nature. In most future wars, civilians will not be spared as they were in Iraq.
History shows again and again how nature points out the folly of ivory tower men.
"I'm American of hispanic descent, a conservative (former republican), and educated on this issue (and others)."
You forgot to include in your description of yourself"
"now proven wrong on this issue for which I have made silly arguments that are baseless and the result of university sociology professors"
Don't even bother. I am shocked at the statements of some of idiots on FR.
The fact is that man has been at war since his creation. You are either going to get killed in war or kill the enemy yourself. There is no in between. Anyone who believes otherwise denies thousands of years of history. They forget, Carthage, Attila, the Shoguns, etc. They are basically idiots who know nothing other than their shallow overpaid education told them.
Do these fools honestly believe that the Japs or Germans would not havbe bombed us first if they could or would?
It was our only option!
>>"now proven wrong on this issue for which I have made silly arguments that are baseless and the result of university sociology professors"
Nobody has yet to prove that it was ok to commit a regional genocide.
And the arguments I present aren't silly. Some people simply don't have the mental formation to actually consider them....
And, I'm not an academic nor stuck in an ivory tower..
Once again, personal attacks do not constitute winning a debate...
Based on experience of war on two theaters of operation, we knew with a good degree of proof that many many more people would die if we engaged in a land war on Japan. Additionally, the soviets wanted to invade Japan and would have slaughtered many many more people than would have been killed in our attacks.
Your statements regarding peoples' relatives is simply shallow, insincere, and ignorant. I would rather drop 10 or 15 more a-bombs on cities than risk hundreds of thousands of our own soldiers. The fact is that it was us or them. They bombed Pearl Harbor, slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent Chinese, and would have fought to the last man in a land war.
For you to believe otherwise is pure fantasy and delusion. You ignore thousands of years of history and try to sit there like you are some enlightened person when you are not.
The way you charachterize us on FR who supported us is like challenging someone who says 2 + 2 = 4. On this issue, in terms of our securing victory, the answer is that clear. Sorry if it offends your sensibilities.
From what I have read, we couldn't have known that. Our intelligence coming from Japan in the war was technical, and was not oracular as to the state of Japan's nuclear weapons program. We didn't know how far along they were.
As it turns out, they probably would not have had a bomb for years, especially after we luckily destroyed a vital portion of the army's nuclear program.* But we didn't know that for certain, and Japan's technological prowess was already quite evident. And if Japan had had nuclear weapons, I am certain that they would have used them on an American city with as much alacrity we exhibited in using the bomb.
Japan's A-bomb goal still long way off in '45
By KENJI HALL
The Associated Press
The night the American B-29 warplanes came, Ryohei Nakane had been enriching uranium for Japan's "super bomb."
Ryohei Nakane, a former scientist at Riken Institute, speaks about Japan's wartime A-bomb project. By the next morning -- April 13, 1945 -- all that remained of his samples and his laboratory at Riken Institute was charred, splintered wood and broken glass.
For nearly six decades, historians have been unable to solve one of the mysteries of Japan's World War II A-bomb project: How close were Japanese scientists to building the bomb before the U.S. air raid stopped them?
All official records were believed to have been burned in the closing days of the war, forcing historians to piece together an answer from less reliable clues.
Now, long-lost wartime documents are setting the record straight.
The 23 pages of Imperial army papers returned to Japan last April offer convincing evidence that Japanese scientists were years from completing their 20-kiloton A- bomb -- which would have had more force than the 15- kiloton bomb dropped on Hiroshima but less than the 22-kiloton device that hit Nagasaki.
Historians say that not only had Japan's scientists underestimated how much of the rare isotope uranium-235 they would need for the bomb, they misunderstood the mechanics of an atomic explosion.
"The documents are one of a kind. We can finally prove that even if Japan had built a bomb, it would not have been powerful at all," said Masakatsu Yamazaki, a professor of science history at the Tokyo Institute of Technology who analyzed the papers. "And it might have taken them another decade to complete one."
Nakane has been telling a similar story for years.
Yoji Shimada, a public relations worker at Riken, displays handwritten notes that form part of the only surviving record of that research. "We were carrying out our research so leisurely. None of us thought we would finish before the war ended," Nakane, 83, said in a recent interview at his Tokyo home.
More than a half-century after the war, Japan's A-bomb project is only a historical footnote. Few Japanese have even heard of their government's wartime nuclear program.
Scientists and military officers who were there have written memoirs and talked publicly about their work. But over the years, speculation and conspiracy theories have clouded the facts and raised doubts about the participants' accounts.
Japan's own efforts to build a bomb are difficult for many here to accept because of the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the widespread feeling that Japan would never have even considered such a brutal attack.
Every year, the two cities honor more than 200,000 people killed or wounded by the two U.S. atomic bombs, and the ceremonies are nationally televised.
As the only nation to have suffered a nuclear attack, Japan has been one of the most outspoken advocates for a global ban on nuclear weapons. It has vowed never to possess, build or trade nuclear weapons and has used this stance to upbraid countries with nuclear ambitions, including North Korea.
But Tokyo hasn't always escaped its own criticism.
Last May, Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's top aide, Chief Cabinet Secretary Yasuo Fukuda, appeared to signal a shift away from the antinuclear doctrine by saying Japan was not legally prohibited from having atomic arms.
China, South Korea and Russia immediately protested, prompting Koizumi to reiterate Tokyo's long-standing policy against nuclear weapons. Fukuda later complained that he had been misquoted.
Surprisingly, the reaction in Japan was muted.
"I think younger Japanese might not be that strongly opposed since they were born after the war and probably have never even heard about their government's wartime atomic program," said Yuzo Fukai, an atomic energy expert and former Nihon University professor.
The treasure-trove of wartime papers could change that.
Sneaked out of the country just after the war by former University of Tokyo professor Kazuo Kuroda, who left for the United States, the papers were sent to Riken Institute, north of Tokyo, by Kuroda's widow months after his death in Las Vegas in 2001.
The documents -- the only surviving record of Japan's A-bomb research -- read like a blueprint for the bomb.
Among the papers are several pages of handwritten notes taken by an army officer during a June 1943 interview with Yoshio Nishina, the country's leading physicist. Nishina, who had once worked with atomic pioneer and Nobel laureate Niels Bohr in Copenhagen, headed the project's 100 scientists beginning in the early 1940s.
The papers show that Nishina believed he could fashion a bomb from 1 kg of weapons-grade U-235 with 1 to 2 tons of natural uranium ore.
But making U-235 proved to be no easy task.
By early 1945, Nishina's team was still struggling to make U-235 from uranium hexafluoride gas in a leaky chamber using a technique known as gaseous thermal diffusion, said Yamazaki of the Tokyo Institute of Technology. In the United States, scientists years earlier had ruled out the technique as too unwieldy.
"Given the inefficiencies of that method, Nishina would have needed thousands of tons of ore," Yamazaki said.
Years later, one of the project's physicists, Tatsusaburo Suzuki, said they had managed to make only about 5 kg of impure U-235 -- far short of what they needed for an atomic weapon.
Uranium wasn't their only concern. Wartime rationing made equipment scarce and money even harder to come by, and scientists had to make do with only one industrial-size cyclotron and four smaller ones to purify fissionable uranium.
Scholars estimate that the army spent the equivalent of $500,000 -- a pittance compared with the roughly $2 billion the United States shelled out for the Manhattan Project. A parallel Japanese navy project, which had no chance of success, cost $150,000.
So stretched were the country's resources that, at one point, military leaders considered scrapping a battleship to supply steel to the army's A-bomb team, said Nakane, the former scientist, who is now an honorary director at Riken.
But at the root of Japan's failure was Nishina's flawed theory about an atomic blast.
To generate an atomic explosion, Nishina knew he had to trigger a chain reaction of U-235. Experts agree that has to occur within 1/200th to 1/300th of a second. In the documents, Nishina says he thought he could do it in 1/20th to 1/30th of a second.
"That's equivalent to the slow-fission reaction in an out-of-control nuclear reactor. An explosion of that magnitude wouldn't be very strong at all," Yamazaki said. "Only years after the war did he realize that his calculations were wrong."
Not everyone believed the Japanese were so far off.
Beginning in the late 1940s, speculative reports citing U.S. and Japanese military intelligence sources concluded that Japan's wartime government had successfully completed an atomic test explosion in August 1945 near a uranium ore processing plant in Hungnam, Korea.
However, postwar U.S. scientific missions to Korea, which was under Japanese colonial rule from 1910 to 1945, found no evidence to back those claims, said Walter Grunden, a professor at Bowling Green State University in Ohio who is finishing a book on the topic.
Grunden said neither U.S. spy photographs of the site nor corporate records from Nihon Chisso, the Japanese company that owned most of the plants in Korea during the war, reveal any A-bomb research activity.
Nakane agrees. When U.S. warplanes destroyed the Riken labs, Japan still hadn't done any work on bombshell design or conducted a single experimental explosion, he said.
"Completing the bomb wasn't Nishina's priority. Advancing Japan's scientific research and saving scientists from the war were more pressing concerns," Nakane said.
The Japan Times: March 7, 2003
* [For what it is worth, as mentioned in the Japan Times article, there has been a line of thought that Japan did make it to the point of testing; however, no one has ever found the alleged site of that detonation in Korea.]
Is it ok for a lion to kill a gazelle? Is it ok if a volcano explodes? Is it ok that the Europeans killed off most of the Native Americans and populated North America? Is it ok Spain invaded Central America and created the Hispanic race? Is it ok everyone dies someday? None of these things are "ok" but that is the real world. Welcome to it.
Thank you for reminder of reality for those who refuse to accept it.
Whereas the bombing of Hamburg and Dresden --- city block by city block --- is a different situation altogether.
Yes. This is a non-moral situation, as it has no morally responsible actors for whom it could be "right" or "wrong."
Is it ok if a volcano explodes?
Yes. Non-moral.
Is it ok that the Europeans killed off most of the Native Americans and populated North America?
No. That the technologically superior Europeans dominated the Mesoamericans was probably inevitable; but the way they did it was unconscionable.
Is it ok Spain invaded Central America and created the Hispanic race?
This is a mixed bag, as some of the invasion was armed aggression, but some of it was simply settlement in sparsely-populated areas. As for the creation of the Hispanic race: much of that was intermarriage, some prostitution, some seduction, some rape. Each merits a separate moral judgment.
Is it ok everyone dies someday?
Again, a mixed judgment, depending on how they died. The fact that everyone dies does not translate into a right to commit murder.
None of these things are "ok" but that is the real world. Welcome to it.
Human beings have sufficient intellect and freedom of choice that they can be held responsible for their actions. This is what we mean when we say they are "moral actors" (as distinct from non-moral actors such as lions, volcanos, etc.) When human beings act in a way that violates moral law, they do not sink to the level of the animal (bestial.) They sink to the level of the demonic. They make life hell for others; they create a kind of hell inside of themselves; and then they get hell hereafter as well. It's not a very good deal.
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