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Redesign Is Seen for Next Craft, NASA Aides Say
NYT ^ | August 2, 2005 | WILLIAM J. BROAD

Posted on 08/02/2005 8:56:13 AM PDT by jbstrick

For its next generation of space vehicles, NASA has decided to abandon the design principles that went into the aging space shuttle, agency officials and private experts say.

Instead, they say, the new vehicles will rearrange the shuttle's components into a safer, more powerful family of traditional rockets...

..."As long as we put the crew and the valuable cargo up above wherever the tanks are, we don't care what they shed," he said. "They can have dandruff all day long."...

...A main advantage, supporters say, is that the big rocket could lift five or six times as much cargo as the shuttle (roughly 100 tons versus 20 tons), making it the world's most powerful space vehicle. In theory, it would be strong enough to haul into orbit whole spaceships destined for the Moon, Mars and beyond....

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events; Technical
KEYWORDS: duh; nasa; rocketscience; shuttle
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To: Boundless

Never would have even happened in the first place with liquid-fueled rockets....


21 posted on 08/02/2005 9:26:11 AM PDT by Cyber Liberty (© 2005, Ravin' Lunatic since 4/98)
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To: jbstrick
Saturn V



Size: 111 m (363 ft)
Payload to orbit: 129,300 kg (285,000 lb)
Payload to Moon: 48,500 kg (107,000 lb)
Manufacturer: Boeing Co. (prime)
1st stage: five F-1 engines
Propellants: RP-1 (kerosene) and liquid oxygen
Total thrust: 33,360,000 newtons (7,500,000 lb)
Manufacturer: Rocketdyne
2nd stage: five J-2 engines
Propellants: liquid hydrogen and liquid oxygen
Total thrust: 5,560,000 newtons (1,250,000 lb)
Manufacturer: Rocketdyne
3rd stage: one J-2 engine
Thrust: 1,112,000 newtons (250,000 lb)

22 posted on 08/02/2005 9:29:25 AM PDT by Dallas59 (" I have a great team that is going to beat George W. Bush" John Kerry -2004)
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To: green iguana

Launching the crew separate from the bulk 'cargo' is a good idea. The crew rocket can forgo the solid propellant boosters. Strapping a pair of roman-candles to the side of a tank of liquid oxygen and hydrogen always seemed like a bad idea.


23 posted on 08/02/2005 9:29:59 AM PDT by 6SJ7
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To: jbstrick

I like the idea of using the boosters as heavy lifters. I don't know if the external fuel tank is strong enough to support the payload shown in the diagram (it's a tank, not a column). The genius behind the space shuttle was that 3 of the 4 principal components are completely reusable. Only the external tank is wasted.

We need to move away from the vertical launch method of sending people to space. We need to look into designing a purely passenger vehicle that can be towed to a high altitude, released, and rocketed to the space station. This builds on the successful lauch method used by Chuck Yeager and also the Ansari X winners. Heavy cargo can still be vertically lauched by a Saturn V with the assistance of the reusable boosters currently used by the space shuttle.


24 posted on 08/02/2005 9:30:13 AM PDT by bobjam
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To: jbstrick
After leaving the astronaut corps, he went to work for the booster maker, ATK Thiokol, where he now leads the company's effort to develop the new family of rockets.

And therefore proposed continuing business for his employer.

25 posted on 08/02/2005 9:31:10 AM PDT by hopespringseternal (</i>)
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To: jbstrick

Go back and read the original bag of tricks, feats, and payloads (and missions) that the designers claimed for the Shuttle....none have panned out so far.

The problem is dealing with the reentry heat and still having a vehicle that's spaceworthy....why not just get a working space vehicle in space via the payload of another workhorse and build and keep the fleet in space? Concentrate on moving away from this planet and looking for alloys, etc. that can stand the heat of reentry among other things....

If we're gonna explore space, we better be prepared to live in it, not trying to figure out how to get from our house out through the driveway to the car.....


26 posted on 08/02/2005 9:31:15 AM PDT by Gaffer
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To: Dallas59

The BDB will be about 350 feet tall. That is close to the Saturn full up. The man launcher will be 250, which is still pretty big.


27 posted on 08/02/2005 9:32:19 AM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and open the Land Office)
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To: green iguana

The 100 ton figure probably means to Low Earth Orbit, not to GEO.


28 posted on 08/02/2005 9:32:44 AM PDT by So Cal Rocket (Proud Member: Internet Pajama Wearers for Truth)
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To: Cyber Liberty
Gives me the creeps too, but I think it is doable, and relatively safely. Another article goes into the proposed escape system, how it would have to be different and extremely reliable, more so than any ever designed.

I actually think that using solids might be more reliable and potentially safer than liquids. Yep, I know, I'm nutz...

29 posted on 08/02/2005 9:33:56 AM PDT by Paradox (John Bolton: "How am I supposed to without U(n)".)
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Comment #30 Removed by Moderator

To: bobbdobbs
So in many ways solid boosters are safer to operate than liquid fuel rockets.

I agree, but it will take an excellent escape system.

31 posted on 08/02/2005 9:37:49 AM PDT by Paradox (John Bolton: "How am I supposed to live without U(n)".)
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To: bobbdobbs

Hey, if they can ever get around the solids having only two power settings (off and full-blast), they'd be perfect.


32 posted on 08/02/2005 9:38:09 AM PDT by Cyber Liberty (© 2005, Ravin' Lunatic since 4/98)
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Comment #33 Removed by Moderator

To: green iguana

Also there should be far less drag on liftoff for the inline vehicles.


34 posted on 08/02/2005 9:44:39 AM PDT by jordan8
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To: Boundless
...This looks entirely ill-considered, as solids can't be throttled or shut down...

Why would you want to do that even with a liquid fueled booster?

35 posted on 08/02/2005 9:44:50 AM PDT by FReepaholic (I'd rather hear a fat girl fart than a pretty boy sing.)
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To: bobbdobbs
Liquid fuel rockets can blow up unexpectedly too

Most people don't realize how complicated the SSME are. At the time of design, they were the most complicated rocket motors ever concieved. They operated at extreme levels, and were meant to be flown over and over again! As I watched each launch, I was surprised that those things never blew up.

36 posted on 08/02/2005 9:46:19 AM PDT by Paradox (John Bolton: "How am I supposed to live without U(n)".)
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Comment #37 Removed by Moderator

To: tscislaw

The power is reduced after liftoff so the stack will encounter less drag and turbulence while in the atmosphere. Once past the point of maximum drag and turbulence, the engine thrust is increased.


38 posted on 08/02/2005 9:49:51 AM PDT by RightWhale (Withdraw from the 1967 UN Outer Space Treaty and open the Land Office)
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To: tscislaw
...This looks entirely ill-considered, as solids can't be throttled or shut down... Why would you want to do that even with a liquid fueled booster?

For one, the thrust of a liquid-fueled engine is adjusted to limit aerodynamic and thrust loads on the launch vehicle / payload during flight. Recall the last transmission from Challenger was, "go for throttle up", when the craft had passed the region of maximum aerodynamic forces on the vehicle.

39 posted on 08/02/2005 9:52:00 AM PDT by Fudd (Never confuse a liberal with facts.)
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To: tscislaw

> Why would you want to do that [throttle or shut down a
> booster] even with a liquid fueled booster?

If an incipient major malfunction can be detected early
enough, the booster can be safed before it causes a total
loss of the stack.

Note that the proposed Crew stack has a small escape
rocket on the top of the capsule, as Mercury-thru-Apollo
did (never used, but the USSR had to once). This only
works reliably if what you are blasting away from isn't
still accelerating toward you (or exploding parts at you).


40 posted on 08/02/2005 9:53:07 AM PDT by Boundless
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