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Thread 13: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1458835/posts |
Posted on 08/02/2005 7:55:42 AM PDT by TexKat
You would behave quite differently if you had been drugged, especially without your knowledge.
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"The drugs also make the victim act without inhibition, often in a sexual or physically affectionate way. Like most drugs, date rape drugs render a person incapable of thinking clearly or of making appropriate decision. This makes for a very passive victim, one who is still able to play a role in what is happening but who will have no clear memory of what happened after-the-fact."
From everything we know about the relationship between NH and JVDS, there is no reason to believe she did not go with him willingly. They had been hanging around with each other for days. None of the MB kids raised any alarm about it.
Ugh, I think you're trying to say immoral
The problem with this theory is that the article you linked said the drugs are fast-acting and render a person unconscious. There is no witness to her being unconscious when they left the club.
Sorry but that isn't enough to say we know for a fact. The 'why' she got in that car is still an unanswered question.
I think this whole discussion boils down to what each person wants to believe. That's the best we can do when the complete facts are not available.
No it is not.
He is supposedly a very powerful man on the island who people would be interested in protecting (i.e. they are protecting Joran because whatever Joran was involved in would somehow implicate this man).
Maggief, do you have anything to add? Is this the guy who has fled and is missing? Or is it that they just can't question him?
The reason Theo posted about Mike Posner is that there is a big Chicago underworld/Aruba connection and maybe, just maybe, Joran really didn't have anything to do with her disappearance.
I for one think that Paulus is more involved than Joran. Joran is pinch inmate for Paulus.
you wrote:
From everything we know about the relationship between NH and JVDS, there is no reason to believe she did not go with him willingly. They had been hanging around with each other for days.
66666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666
parse what you qrote with this:
This is a partial transcript from "On the Record," June 21, 2005, that has been edited for clarity.
GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: We're live in Aruba (search), where the frantic search for Natalee Holloway (search) has been under way since she vanished on May 30. The Alabama teenager was on an unofficial graduation trip with more than 100 classmates when she disappeared.
Joining us live from Birmingham, Alabama, are two of Natalee's best friends, Frances Ellen Byrd and Ruth McVay. They were both on the trip with Natalee.
Frances Ellen, when you were in Aruba, did you ever feel unsafe?
FRANCES ELLEN BYRD, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S FRIEND: I wouldn't say that. Not really.
VAN SUSTEREN: Did you go to Carlos and Charlie's (search), Frances Ellen?
BYRD: Yes.
VAN SUSTEREN: What did you think of it?
BYRD: It was just a place for us to go at night and all be together. Since the sun was down and we weren't on the beach anymore, we just went there.
VAN SUSTEREN: Ruth, you were present when Natalee met Joran van der Sloot (search), is that right?
RUTH MCVAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S FRIEND: That's right.
VAN SUSTEREN: Where were you?
MCVAY: We were in our hotel casino. And that was the first night that she had ever met him. Contrary to other stories that are circulating, she did not know him before that night.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right. And when you say the fist night, was that the night of May 29 into the 30th, when she missed her flight home?
MCVAY: Yes, ma'am.
VAN SUSTEREN: And Ruth, how did you happen to notice him? What was it about him that caught your attention?
MCVAY: He didn't. He was sitting at our blackjack table, and he just seemed like a normal teenager. He wasn't flirting. He wasn't really outgoing at all. And Natalee, just in passing, introduced herself and walked off. And nothing was strange or out of the ordinary about him at all.
VAN SUSTEREN: Did there come a time when Natalee made some sort of date — I don't mean a date, I mean, an arrangement — with him, with you, with everybody, to go to Carlos and Charlie's?
MCVAY: Not with him. Absolutely not. With us. She went with all of our friends. He wasn't with us. He didn't go with us.
VAN SUSTEREN: How is it, Ruth, that both Joran and Natalee both ended up at Carlos and Charlie's?
MCVAY: He came with his friends. He had told us that night that Sunday was not a fun night on the island and that no one goes out. So we found it ironic that he showed up.
VAN SUSTEREN: Frances Ellen, what happened when you were ready to take your flight that next day and Natalee wasn't there? What did everyone think?
BYRD: Oh, we knew that something was wrong because Natalee is one of our most responsible friends. And when she was not with us that morning, we were worried, and we were right there with the chaperones, trying to figure out what was going on.
VAN SUSTEREN: Ruth, did you actually see Natalee leave with Joran from Carlos and Charlie's?
MCVAY: No, I actually left an hour before the club closed.
VAN SUSTEREN: Either one of you, do you know if any of your friends saw her leave with him?
BYRD: No. If one of our good friends had seen her, we would never have let her get in the car with him, ever. Absolutely not.
VAN SUSTEREN: Frances, when you left Carlos and Charlie's, was it just Natalee that was left behind in your group of friends, or was there a bunch of you?
BYRD: No, I don't know how many people exactly, but there was a lot of people there at closing time, including the local people and all the other people that were in Carlos and Charlie's that night. And when we all left, there was just a huge group of people waiting outside for taxis, and I never saw her get into that taxi.
VAN SUSTEREN: Ruth, what time did you actually leave Carlos and Charlie's that night or that morning?
MCVAY: Around midnight.
VAN SUSTEREN: I know that Natalee left after you, but any idea what time Natalee left?
MCVAY: From other people talking and the time that the club closed, around 1 a.m.
VAN SUSTEREN: All right, Frances Ellen, Ruth, thank you both.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160385,00.html
You enjoy being the fire ant at the social gathering, don't you? Sting away....
Other articles detail different symptoms -- the victim is not always rendered unconscious, it depends on amounts, also whether the drug was home-made.
There are variations in the rate the drugs are absorbed, there is just no way to know at this late date because for one thing they are no longer detectable after about 72 hours..."no body, no crime" also applies here.
This article has much more information on the various drugs, including interestingly the breathing difficulties associated with GHB and ketamine, though apparently not with rohypnol:
http://www.4woman.gov/faq/rohypnol.htm#3
Also the following comment from the above link, which should be considered by those who want to blame the victim:
"But remember: even if a victim of sexual assault drank alcohol, she is NOT at fault for being assaulted."
Exactly Malichi. I, for one, have wondered more often than not whether not Joran killed anyone. I have a theory about that, but don't post it because I have no facts to prove it. But, I truly have come to believe that this kid is taking a chance at getting out of jail without saying another word because he is afraid to tell the truth.
I think the wrong questions are being asked of the MB kids. I would be more interested in who else Natalee was seen with during their entire stay. How often she was in that casino. How often she went off 'by herself'. Things like that.
You nailed TBV to a tee. She gets off to arguing with brick walls and if you check out her history you will see that she craves negative attention. Best advice is to ignore the brat.
Shut up
I hate to say it but even though my hat's been off to Greta for covering this story, I'm getting irritated at her emphasis on the "no body, no crime" aspect. She's been going to great length lately suggesting that JVDS & the Kalpoes won't be charged because Natalee's body hasn't been found. I'm sorry, but her "lawyerness" is getting on my nerves. I know, I know, there have been plenty of murder convictions without a body in the U.S., but wasn't it stated early on in this investigation that in Aruba, a body doesn't have to necessarily be found?
Sorry, but this sounds more like your opinion than an established fact. I have no problem with you expressing your opinion when presented as such.
You've omitted the witnesses that don't support your assumed fact of mutual consent. As I recall, there's a story of Natalee being led out of CnC by Deepak. There's also the story about Joran hitting Natalee that evening. There's the story of Natalee telling Joran to leave her alone that evening. There's the story of Natalee interacting with Joran in a freindly manner earlier that evening. There's the stories of drugs invovled which causes lax judgement, at the least.
I don't know any of them to fact, yet. Just as I don't know any of the other witnesses stories to this event to be fact, yet. Some of them must be fact, I just don't know which ones. We also must consider that their stories will differ due to their location, timing, their own state of awareness, etc. So we will hear differing stories.
I think this particular fact you've presented has yet to be established until we get more confirmation and less rumor.
I don't think anyone is blaming Natalee for going off with Joran in the sense that she is to blame for what happened to her. I think what people are saying is that consuming a lot of alcohol, especially when it is something you don't normally do, can be lead you to do things that are unthinkable when you are sober. By all accounts, Natalee was not a big party girl, but the whole atmosphere in Aruba was party and she went along with it.
I am perplexed.
You are giving Joran's mother a huge break but are casting suspicion on girls from Birminham. And the supposition or idea that Natalie was "voluntarily drunk, gasmbling and willingly left with strangers" is interesting.
Is that your opinion? That Natalie was drunk, gambling and left with strangers willingly?
I agree LiLI. It is almost defamatory what people are implying about the girls from Birmingham.
Nobody will offer much of a scenario, just implications and slurs.
are you not going to reply to # 1189?
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