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Let's Have No More Monkey Trials - To teach faith as science is to undermine both
Time Magazine ^ | Monday, Aug. 01, 2005 | CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER

Posted on 08/01/2005 10:58:13 AM PDT by wallcrawlr

The half-century campaign to eradicate any vestige of religion from public life has run its course. The backlash from a nation fed up with the A.C.L.U. kicking crèches out of municipal Christmas displays has created a new balance. State-supported universities may subsidize the activities of student religious groups. Monuments inscribed with the Ten Commandments are permitted on government grounds. The Federal Government is engaged in a major antipoverty initiative that gives money to churches. Religion is back out of the closet.

But nothing could do more to undermine this most salutary restoration than the new and gratuitous attempts to invade science, and most particularly evolution, with religion. Have we learned nothing? In Kansas, conservative school-board members are attempting to rewrite statewide standards for teaching evolution to make sure that creationism's modern stepchild, intelligent design, infiltrates the curriculum. Similar anti-Darwinian mandates are already in place in Ohio and are being fought over in 20 states. And then, as if to second the evangelical push for this tarted-up version of creationism, out of the blue appears a declaration from Christoph Cardinal Schönborn of Vienna, a man very close to the Pope, asserting that the supposed acceptance of evolution by John Paul II is mistaken. In fact, he says, the Roman Catholic Church rejects "neo-Darwinism" with the declaration that an "unguided evolutionary process--one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence--simply cannot exist."

Cannot? On what scientific evidence? Evolution is one of the most powerful and elegant theories in all of human science and the bedrock of all modern biology. Schönborn's proclamation that it cannot exist unguided--that it is driven by an intelligent designer pushing and pulling and planning and shaping the process along the way--is a perfectly legitimate statement of faith. If he and the Evangelicals just stopped there and asked that intelligent design be included in a religion curriculum, I would support them. The scandal is to teach this as science--to pretend, as does Schönborn, that his statement of faith is a defense of science. "The Catholic Church," he says, "will again defend human reason" against "scientific theories that try to explain away the appearance of design as the result of 'chance and necessity,'" which "are not scientific at all." Well, if you believe that science is reason and that reason begins with recognizing the existence of an immanent providence, then this is science. But, of course, it is not. This is faith disguised as science. Science begins not with first principles but with observation and experimentation.

In this slippery slide from "reason" to science, Schönborn is a direct descendant of the early 17th century Dutch clergyman and astronomer David Fabricius, who could not accept Johannes Kepler's discovery of elliptical planetary orbits. Why? Because the circle is so pure and perfect that reason must reject anything less. "With your ellipse," Fabricius wrote Kepler, "you abolish the circularity and uniformity of the motions, which appears to me increasingly absurd the more profoundly I think about it." No matter that, using Tycho Brahe's most exhaustive astronomical observations in history, Kepler had empirically demonstrated that the planets orbit elliptically.

This conflict between faith and science had mercifully abated over the past four centuries as each grew to permit the other its own independent sphere. What we are witnessing now is a frontier violation by the forces of religion. This new attack claims that because there are gaps in evolution, they therefore must be filled by a divine intelligent designer.

How many times do we have to rerun the Scopes "monkey trial"? There are gaps in science everywhere. Are we to fill them all with divinity? There were gaps in Newton's universe. They were ultimately filled by Einstein's revisions. There are gaps in Einstein's universe, great chasms between it and quantum theory. Perhaps they are filled by God. Perhaps not. But it is certainly not science to merely declare it so.

To teach faith as science is to undermine the very idea of science, which is the acquisition of new knowledge through hypothesis, experimentation and evidence. To teach it as science is to encourage the supercilious caricature of America as a nation in the thrall of religious authority. To teach it as science is to discredit the welcome recent advances in permitting the public expression of religion. Faith can and should be proclaimed from every mountaintop and city square. But it has no place in science class. To impose it on the teaching of evolution is not just to invite ridicule but to earn it.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: acanthostega; charleskrauthammer; creation; crevolist; faith; ichthyostega; krauthammer; science; scienceeducation; scopes; smallpenismen
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To: xzins
"(Think the competition will come out with the "New FORD Virus!")"

You mean it hasn't yet? News to me.

1,581 posted on 08/04/2005 9:22:32 AM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: xzins
"The Prius will result in the NEW Ford Viron! "

Making me laugh this early in the morning is probably a good thing. :)

1,582 posted on 08/04/2005 9:25:48 AM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: malakhi; betty boop
Thank you so much for your reply!

The 'problem' is not with things which are non-physical, but rather with things which are non-testable. What sort of "scientific method" could provide a means to empirically test that which is supernatural or non-physical? If it is testable, at least in principle, then it is within the scope of 'science'. If not, then it isn't.

Everything which I have mentioned is either testable or observable - either directly or indirectly.

For instance, Strominger/Vafa used string theory to calculate the Bekenstein/Hawking black hole entropy. Another example was Einstein's pulling Riemannian geometry off the shelf to describe general relativity. Communications and computer technology is proof of Shannon's Mathematical Theory of Communications. And there are many other such examples…

Well, I'm not a Platonist. ;o) Depending upon your definition of "physical", I'd dispute the notion that physicists are dealing with the non-physical.

You might want to consider the field of geometric physics including string theory.

In fact, the whole issue of matter itself is quite “up in the air” in physics. The Standard Model requires the Higgs which has neither been made nor observed. Even if CERN finds it, it would still be only 5% of the critical density of the universe. Hence all the work on supersymmetry because higher mass particles are necessary to explain dark matter (25%) which is the non-radiating form around which galaxies rotate and dark energy (70%) which is dissipated throughout the universe and acts a counter to gravity.

The mainstream of physics is looking to dimensionality (geometry) for explanations of matter.

What would a non-physical answer look like? How would the question be framed? And how would one go about determining the truth of such a hypothesis?

It would look like Shannon’s mathematical theory of communications, Einstein’s special and general relativity models, Hilbert space, Godel’s incompleteness theorem and so on.

1,583 posted on 08/04/2005 9:29:39 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Doctor Stochastic
"Is a sperm cell alive? Is it human? "
"Is an unfertilized egg cell alive? Is is human?"

More good questions, unfortunately not questions I can answer. However I do not believe there is some 'essential' difference between prelife and life. I do believe that there is a difference between abiogenic prelife and death.

1,584 posted on 08/04/2005 9:34:55 AM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: Elsie

The only thing I hate more than fundamentalists are DIGITAL guys.. all they do is keep droning out the same stupid things.. Analog is natural, elegant and beautiful, digital is zombified and brain dead.


1,585 posted on 08/04/2005 9:36:10 AM PDT by Analog Artist (My thoughts are like silvery liquid metal floating through infinite white space in zero gravity..)
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To: xzins
"What is it? Do you know?"

You are making an unfounded assumption that there is indeed 'stuff'.

1,586 posted on 08/04/2005 9:37:30 AM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: chariotdriver

Come up with your own eye-catching phrase... for a change ;)


1,587 posted on 08/04/2005 9:38:56 AM PDT by Analog Artist (My thoughts are like silvery liquid metal floating through infinite white space in zero gravity..)
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To: Elsie

Ohh, you gotta scientist "hit list" now ? befits you'll quite well.


1,588 posted on 08/04/2005 9:41:01 AM PDT by Analog Artist (My thoughts are like silvery liquid metal floating through infinite white space in zero gravity..)
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To: xzins; Right Wing Professor; betty boop
Thank you for your replies!

xzins: The most intriguing is "live rabbit versus dead rabbit." What is missing from one to the other that makes it no longer living? Great question.

RWP: I find it amusing you both are so entertained by a point originally raised by Richard Dawkins.

Indeed, this from Dawkins:

If you want to understand life, don’t think about vibrant, throbbing gels and oozes, think about information technology
. — Richard Dawkins, The Blind Watchmaker, New York: W. W. Norton & Co., 1986.

Since Dawkins is a rabid atheist, IMHO, this business of inviting mathematicians to the table was a death wish on his part.

The thing which is missing when a live rabbit becomes a dead rabbit is information (successful communication).

For Lurkers: Information (successful communication) is the reduction of Shannon entropy (uncertainty) in a receiver (or molecular machine) going from a before state to an after state.

There is no known source for information in the universe at this time. The areas available to science to look relate to the geometry: harmonics, fields, etc. Beyond that it is a question for theology and philosophy.

Moreover, when one investigates the Shannon theory applied to biological life – there are several ways in which a communication may be initiated within the molecular machinery. Among these are:

interrupt – such as presence of food, light, temperature, etc.

cycle – rhythm or timing

will – either involuntary (“will to live” “struggle to survive” “fecundity principle”) – or voluntary (choosing to move a finger, to fly away, to raid or defend, select a mate, etc.)


1,589 posted on 08/04/2005 9:44:08 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl
Thanks for responding. As I've said before, I'm loaded with .22s and you're loaded with .45s. Let me increase my caliber before I join in this discussion.
1,590 posted on 08/04/2005 9:45:14 AM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: Right Wing Professor
"I have a computer in the next room that won't boot. What's the vital spark that's missing?

Send it to me and I'll fix it for you.

1,591 posted on 08/04/2005 9:47:09 AM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: b_sharp; Alamo-Girl

"Stuff" is for want of presuming the answer to the definition.

I'm sure you'll agree that the dead rabbit and live rabbit are different, and that "something" is no longer with the dead rabbit that was with it prior to its death.

AG, I'm not a student at all of Shannon (who, what, when, etc.) and what she has written/done. Can you give the nutshell version? Thanks. Z


1,592 posted on 08/04/2005 9:50:29 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins; Alamo-Girl
"I'm sure you'll agree that the dead rabbit and live rabbit are different, and that "something" is no longer with the dead rabbit that was with it prior to its death. "

Nope. I believe it is more like something is turned off.

>"AG, I'm not a student at all of Shannon (who, what, when, etc.) and what she has written/done. Can you give the nutshell version? Thanks. Z"

I'll let A-G field that question. The only basis in Shannon I have is in relation to computer network communication.

1,593 posted on 08/04/2005 10:01:03 AM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: chariotdriver
Demented knucklehead established... DEMENTED LOOSES.

Geez, you've totally lost it, haven't you?
1,594 posted on 08/04/2005 10:07:14 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: MEGoody
You remind me of the leftists trying to compare Bush to Hitler.

The difference being that neither Bush nor his aides have ever invited Nazis to speak on their behalf.
1,595 posted on 08/04/2005 10:09:39 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: xzins; b_sharp; betty boop
Thank you both so very much for your replies!

Claude Shannon is the father of "information theory" which is part of the discipline we call "mathematics".

Here is a biography on Shannon from Mathworld

His original theory, written back in the 1940's is available here: A Mathematical Theory of Communications.

His theory has been applied for many years to "molecular biology" in both cancer research and pharmaceuticals. For an introduction: Introduction and Overview

Obviously this is one of my favorite subjects - but I must leave soon to go help with some construction projects and thus won't be able to respond until late this evening. But I am looking forward to reading your comments!!!

1,596 posted on 08/04/2005 10:13:21 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: b_sharp
Send it to me and I'll fix it for you.

Thanks for the offer, but I think I can manage :-)

1,597 posted on 08/04/2005 10:16:11 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: Alamo-Girl
Since Dawkins is a rabid atheist, IMHO, this business of inviting mathematicians to the table was a death wish on his part.

Oh, given he's an Oxford professor and probably interacts with mathematicians on a daily basis - in fact, given that he was one of the first biologists to apply game theoretical insights to evolution - I doubt he's much intimidated by mathematicians.

BTW, if he's a rabid atheist, are you a rabid Christian?

1,598 posted on 08/04/2005 10:19:36 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: eleni121
Pi has been around even longer than you have

Oh, for sure. And the Bible says its value is 3.

It is a theory a theorem.

Is English your first language?

1,599 posted on 08/04/2005 10:23:38 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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To: xzins
But what's that stuff that's missing for a dead human that it had just moments before as a live human?

Depends on the cause of death. Often, it's a few quarts of blood.

1,600 posted on 08/04/2005 10:24:57 AM PDT by Right Wing Professor
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