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Let's Have No More Monkey Trials - To teach faith as science is to undermine both
Time Magazine ^ | Monday, Aug. 01, 2005 | CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER

Posted on 08/01/2005 10:58:13 AM PDT by wallcrawlr

The half-century campaign to eradicate any vestige of religion from public life has run its course. The backlash from a nation fed up with the A.C.L.U. kicking crèches out of municipal Christmas displays has created a new balance. State-supported universities may subsidize the activities of student religious groups. Monuments inscribed with the Ten Commandments are permitted on government grounds. The Federal Government is engaged in a major antipoverty initiative that gives money to churches. Religion is back out of the closet.

But nothing could do more to undermine this most salutary restoration than the new and gratuitous attempts to invade science, and most particularly evolution, with religion. Have we learned nothing? In Kansas, conservative school-board members are attempting to rewrite statewide standards for teaching evolution to make sure that creationism's modern stepchild, intelligent design, infiltrates the curriculum. Similar anti-Darwinian mandates are already in place in Ohio and are being fought over in 20 states. And then, as if to second the evangelical push for this tarted-up version of creationism, out of the blue appears a declaration from Christoph Cardinal Schönborn of Vienna, a man very close to the Pope, asserting that the supposed acceptance of evolution by John Paul II is mistaken. In fact, he says, the Roman Catholic Church rejects "neo-Darwinism" with the declaration that an "unguided evolutionary process--one that falls outside the bounds of divine providence--simply cannot exist."

Cannot? On what scientific evidence? Evolution is one of the most powerful and elegant theories in all of human science and the bedrock of all modern biology. Schönborn's proclamation that it cannot exist unguided--that it is driven by an intelligent designer pushing and pulling and planning and shaping the process along the way--is a perfectly legitimate statement of faith. If he and the Evangelicals just stopped there and asked that intelligent design be included in a religion curriculum, I would support them. The scandal is to teach this as science--to pretend, as does Schönborn, that his statement of faith is a defense of science. "The Catholic Church," he says, "will again defend human reason" against "scientific theories that try to explain away the appearance of design as the result of 'chance and necessity,'" which "are not scientific at all." Well, if you believe that science is reason and that reason begins with recognizing the existence of an immanent providence, then this is science. But, of course, it is not. This is faith disguised as science. Science begins not with first principles but with observation and experimentation.

In this slippery slide from "reason" to science, Schönborn is a direct descendant of the early 17th century Dutch clergyman and astronomer David Fabricius, who could not accept Johannes Kepler's discovery of elliptical planetary orbits. Why? Because the circle is so pure and perfect that reason must reject anything less. "With your ellipse," Fabricius wrote Kepler, "you abolish the circularity and uniformity of the motions, which appears to me increasingly absurd the more profoundly I think about it." No matter that, using Tycho Brahe's most exhaustive astronomical observations in history, Kepler had empirically demonstrated that the planets orbit elliptically.

This conflict between faith and science had mercifully abated over the past four centuries as each grew to permit the other its own independent sphere. What we are witnessing now is a frontier violation by the forces of religion. This new attack claims that because there are gaps in evolution, they therefore must be filled by a divine intelligent designer.

How many times do we have to rerun the Scopes "monkey trial"? There are gaps in science everywhere. Are we to fill them all with divinity? There were gaps in Newton's universe. They were ultimately filled by Einstein's revisions. There are gaps in Einstein's universe, great chasms between it and quantum theory. Perhaps they are filled by God. Perhaps not. But it is certainly not science to merely declare it so.

To teach faith as science is to undermine the very idea of science, which is the acquisition of new knowledge through hypothesis, experimentation and evidence. To teach it as science is to encourage the supercilious caricature of America as a nation in the thrall of religious authority. To teach it as science is to discredit the welcome recent advances in permitting the public expression of religion. Faith can and should be proclaimed from every mountaintop and city square. But it has no place in science class. To impose it on the teaching of evolution is not just to invite ridicule but to earn it.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: acanthostega; charleskrauthammer; creation; crevolist; faith; ichthyostega; krauthammer; science; scienceeducation; scopes; smallpenismen
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To: xzins

Nope!


1,481 posted on 08/03/2005 6:21:12 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: PatrickHenry

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Aegean/8830/mathproofcreat.html


1,482 posted on 08/03/2005 6:35:40 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins
"disagree. you want the ticket with letters "a-b-i-o-g-e-n-e-s-i-s" sequence to win. That's the winner you chose. I've heard it's got about 10^150+ chances to lose and only one to win. Even giving you 15 billion years your ticket has effectively zero chance of winning.

Nope! I want one of 1x10^100 out of 1x10^150. I also want 1x10^10 concurrent draws. By the way, the probability for the ticket 'abiogenesis' to win assuming 26 letters is 1/26^11 or 2.7x10^-16. The probability to lose, for what it's worth is 1 -(2.7x10^-16).

On a more sober note, how the heck do you get superscript from html?

1,483 posted on 08/03/2005 6:39:05 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: spunkets

You're saying that if there are calculations made in GR and the results don't match reality then: something's wrong in your calculations or something's being missed.

Is that it?


1,484 posted on 08/03/2005 6:41:45 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: b_sharp

Well, at least it was a short answer. :>)

I disagree, of course.


1,485 posted on 08/03/2005 6:43:42 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins
I've seen that before. It's nonsense. He's working entirely with the notion of random assembly of DNA. He knows nothing of organic chemistry. Some combinations are inevitable, and some are impossible. He ignores all of this. Worthless stuff. Really. I suggest you read an introductory text about organic chemistry. If you do, you'll be much better able to evaluate nonsense when you see it. If you don't take the trouble to become informed, you're at the mercy of any clown who makes a claim on the internet.
1,486 posted on 08/03/2005 6:43:46 PM PDT by PatrickHenry (Felix, qui potuit rerum cognoscere causas. The List-O-Links is at my homepage.)
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To: atlaw
"The phrase "effecitively zero" is effectively meaningless."

I wouldn't say that. Quite often, you have to make a choice on where you draw the line. That means I've arbitrarily chosen some region between a point close to zero, but not zero, and zero. Anything in that range will be considered zero. The same could be done for 1. This is normal for T/F type questions... 0, or 1.

1,487 posted on 08/03/2005 6:45:17 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: xzins
"You're saying that if there are calculations made in GR and the results don't match reality then: something's wrong in your calculations or something's being missed.
Is that it?

right.

1,488 posted on 08/03/2005 6:47:24 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: b_sharp

(sup)....(/sup)

(sub)....(/sub)

Substitute < > for ( )


1,489 posted on 08/03/2005 6:48:14 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: spunkets

If your calculations don't match reality then (1) your math or logic could be wrong.

OR

(2) You could be missing that the model (GR?) is wrong.
(3) You could be missing the outside influence of an intelligent force.


1,490 posted on 08/03/2005 6:52:46 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: PatrickHenry
The odds are seriously against my picking up an organic chemistry book. (about 10150 :>)
1,491 posted on 08/03/2005 6:54:05 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins
If your calculations don't match reality then

(1) your math or logic could be wrong.

OR

(2) You could be missing that the model (GR?) is wrong.
(3) You could be missing the outside influence of an intelligent force.

Yes

(GR=general relativity)note GR could be incomplete(knowledge and understanding)

1,492 posted on 08/03/2005 7:00:59 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: eleni121
Your mission - as well as all so-called evolutionists - is to start reading/viewing these and start thinking outside that box you have walled yourself into:

Ah! I'm an "evolutionist." And I have a "mission." Oh, boy! Nothing like a mission to get the ol' juices running.

Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolution and the Meanings of Life by Daniel C. Dennett

Defeating Darwinism by Opening Minds by Phillip E. Johnson

Icons Of Evolution DVD ~ Brian Boorujy

Darwin Retried (1971), Macbeth;

The Neck of the Giraffe: Where Darwin Went Wrong (1982), Hitching;

The Great Evolution Mystery (1983), Taylor;

The Bone Peddlers: Selling Evolution (1984), Fix;

Darwin Was Wrong - A Study in Probabilities (1984), Cohen;

Darwinism: The Refutation of a Myth (1987), Lovtrup; and

Adam and Evolution (1984), Pitman.

DARWINS BLACK BOX: THE BIOCHEMICAL CHALLENGE TO EVOLUTION by Michael J. Behe

What, nothing from this millenium?

No "Darwin on Trial"? Tsk, tsk.

1,493 posted on 08/03/2005 7:02:35 PM PDT by Gumlegs
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To: spunkets

OK, now your point that you were making with that was what? Or was that the point?

If so, then yes, I see it now.


1,494 posted on 08/03/2005 7:05:51 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: xzins
effectively zero probability is little different than zero probability. We're saying it has a overwhelmingly remote to zero chance of showing up.

Effectively zero is by its very nature not zero. If you are calculating the probability of a singular event within a singular set of variables (i.e., my individual chances of winning the lottery), then perhaps "effectively zero" has some meaning in a pedantic way.

But my chances are still "not zero" (even if "effectively zero"). The variables not considered in my individual case are, however, the very variables that make the lottery a viable revenue generator. It will be won at some point by someone. Hence, the "gut reaction" purchase of tickets by the population of individuals who otherwise have an "effectively zero" chance of winning (and consequently money from suckers for the education fund).

Applying a very rough though similar analysis (including the suckers, who may be thought of as the extinctees) to the process of evolution and speciation, the variables that you are not considering (gross duration, population densities, widely variable genetic mutations across a population occurring simultaneously, simultaneous population dispersal across a range of abutting and blending ecosystems, simultaneous and widely variable selectivity within these variable ecosystems by way of food source, food collection ability, and breeding propensity, etc., etc.) render evolution and speciation considerably more than a "not zero" event, and indeed an "effectively probable" event (my apologies to spunket).

1,495 posted on 08/03/2005 7:06:10 PM PDT by atlaw
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To: PatrickHenry

Thanks. But did you have to be so clear? I was waiting for my paper to explain things well enough for people to understand.;->

No worries. At the rate I write it won't be done for weeks.


1,496 posted on 08/03/2005 7:07:09 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: eleni121

Thanks. I think I will.

I'm getting quite the headache.;)


1,497 posted on 08/03/2005 7:09:01 PM PDT by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: xzins
"OK, now your point that you were making with that was what? Or was that the point?
If so, then yes, I see it now.

OK, so if you conclude something is missing, you have 2 choices. The choice is between physics and an intel force.

1,498 posted on 08/03/2005 7:11:00 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: atlaw

The lottery is won because they carefully ensure an appropriate number of tickets will be sold relative to the possible combinations of numbers.

If they sold just one ticket,then it'd be a long, long wait.

And if it is you hoping to win, then think that each year there are at most 52 winners and in a decade just 520.

I can safely predict that YOU will not win.


1,499 posted on 08/03/2005 7:16:54 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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To: spunkets

If my model isn't working, then yes, it could be my understanding of the physics is wrong, or it could be some outside intelligence is toying with the results.

If we'd ruled out that the math or logic wasn't done correctly, then odds are with the physics being wrong, but we cannot rule out an outside influence.


1,500 posted on 08/03/2005 7:19:19 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It!)
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