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Avian Flu Preparedness Project
Freepers. ^ | July 29, 2005 | various FReepers

Posted on 07/29/2005 7:06:04 PM PDT by Judith Anne

This thread is for specific questions and answers about preparing for Avian Flu in the US. News articles and discussion about the Avian Flu can be found here:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1399613/posts

Everyone who was on the Avian Flu Surveillance Project ping list will be on this ping list. If you want on or off this list, please let me or Dog Gone know. Thanks.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: avianflu; emergency; emergencyprep; flu; influenza; outbreak; pandemic; preparedness; publichealth
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To: bitt

For a map showing the outbreak patterns, please click this link:

http://www.recombinomics.com/H5N1_Map_2005_QinghaiL.html


161 posted on 08/23/2005 8:06:05 AM PDT by genefromjersey (So much to flame;so little time !)
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To: bitt

Wow. That article gave me the shivers, literally.


162 posted on 08/23/2005 8:40:58 AM PDT by little jeremiah (A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, are incompatible with freedom. P. Henry)
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To: yall
Questions & Answers: Projected Vaccine Supply for the 2005-06 Influenza Season
163 posted on 08/23/2005 8:51:10 AM PDT by null and void (Pssst! Suicide bombing causes eternal impotence. Pass it on...)
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To: genefromjersey; neverdem

that map is nasty!


164 posted on 08/23/2005 2:32:24 PM PDT by bitt ('We will all soon reap what the ignorant are now sowing.' Victor Davis Hanson)
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To: bitt

Do you notice where everything starts ?


165 posted on 08/23/2005 3:35:56 PM PDT by genefromjersey (So much to flame;so little time !)
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To: genefromjersey

Quinghi? China? is that what you mean? tell me more.


166 posted on 08/23/2005 4:45:52 PM PDT by bitt ('We will all soon reap what the ignorant are now sowing.' Victor Davis Hanson)
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To: bitt

When you look at the map, there is clearly an epicenter-and that epicenter is China.

There is some other stuff going on in Russia as well: an unusual epidemic of tularemia.It went from 4 cases a year to 58 in a couple of months.

http://www.promedmail.org/pls/askus/f?p=2400:1001:17677907878855479755::NO::F2400_P1001_BACK_PAGE,F2400_P1001_PUB_MAIL_ID:1000,30141


Russia and China seem on good terms-just completed joint military exercises , so, if there is a bioattack going on,the perpetrator might be a 3rd party.


167 posted on 08/23/2005 5:27:35 PM PDT by genefromjersey (So much to flame;so little time !)
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To: genefromjersey

can't read the site, but these are Chechens.

168 posted on 08/23/2005 7:07:17 PM PDT by bitt ('We will all soon reap what the ignorant are now sowing.' Victor Davis Hanson)
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To: little jeremiah
It is really just a matter of time before this hits. ALL the signs are pointing to a major event happening. Unlike war this will not be a quick bombing run or a quick victory. This fight will last years with sucessvive waves of mutated flu hitting our shores and the world's backdoor. Many millions if not hundreds of millions will die. The poorest countries will be hit the hardest but the US will sustain very many deaths and alot of economic hardship. It may not happen this year or the next but it WILL HAPPEN
169 posted on 08/27/2005 2:21:19 AM PDT by unseen
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To: unseen

From my layman's viewpoint, it sure looks like that.

Gotta get the immune system up and running. I'm working on putting together information I've gleaned about strengthening the immune system, probably put it up in a couple of weeks. Herbs, dietary, and so on.


170 posted on 08/27/2005 9:43:57 AM PDT by little jeremiah (A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, are incompatible with freedom. P. Henry)
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To: little jeremiah

Yes, I also need to get in better shape and get my body running better. But by all means do not overlook the lessons we are seeing in New Orleans. Worry about yourself and your family's protection also. The herd mentality will kill just as quick as the virus when the panic starts.


171 posted on 09/02/2005 10:59:43 PM PDT by unseen
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To: unseen

Since Friday I have pored over the articles about New Orleans without being able to stop myself. This is a huge wakeup call for me. I am in many ways naive, and live waaaay out in the boondocks, far away from scenes described in the bowels of NO.

But we have our share of meth freaks and feral humans here as well, and people who will lose their veneer of civilization. Especially if a few things happen simultaneously.

I plan to stock up on some basic foodstuffs and necessities in the next few weeks. Including some more ammunition, just in case. Better have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

I hope many who read and post on FR plan to do the same.


172 posted on 09/03/2005 12:22:07 AM PDT by little jeremiah (A vitiated state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, are incompatible with freedom. P. Henry)
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To: little jeremiah

yes my gun is always locked and loaded.


173 posted on 09/03/2005 12:30:06 AM PDT by unseen
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To: unseen

a gun friend suggested a winchester 2100 shotgun. ?


174 posted on 09/07/2005 7:15:54 AM PDT by bitt ('But once the shooting starts, a plan is just a guess in a party dress.' Michael Yon)
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To: bitt; All

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1483862/posts?page=1


Avian Influenza (H5N1) Viruses Isolated from Humans in Asia in 2004 Exhibit Increased Virulence in Mammals

The spread of highly pathogenic avian influenza H5N1 viruses across Asia in 2003 and 2004 devastated domestic poultry populations and resulted in the largest and most lethal H5N1 virus outbreak in humans to date.

To better understand the potential of H5N1 viruses isolated during this epizootic event to cause disease in mammals, we used the mouse and ferret models to evaluate the relative virulence of selected 2003 and 2004 H5N1 viruses representing multiple genetic and geographical groups and compared them to earlier H5N1 strains isolated from humans.

Four of five human isolates tested were highly lethal for both mice and ferrets and exhibited a substantially greater level of virulence in ferrets than other H5N1 viruses isolated from humans since 1997.

One human isolate and all four avian isolates tested were found to be of low virulence in either animal. The highly virulent viruses replicated to high titers in the mouse and ferret respiratory tracts and spread to multiple organs, including the brain.

Rapid disease progression and high lethality rates in ferrets distinguished the highly virulent 2004 H5N1 viruses from the 1997 H5N1 viruses. A pair of viruses isolated from the same patient differed by eight amino acids, including a Lys/Glu disparity at 627 of PB2, previously identified as an H5N1 virulence factor in mice.

The virus possessing Glu at 627 of PB2 exhibited only a modest decrease in virulence in mice and was highly virulent in ferrets, indicating that for this virus pair, the K627E PB2 difference did not have a prevailing effect on virulence in mice or ferrets. Our results demonstrate the general equivalence of mouse and ferret models for assessment of the virulence of 2003 and 2004 H5N1 viruses.

However, the apparent enhancement of virulence of these viruses in humans in 2004 was better reflected in the ferret.





TOPICS: Extended News; News/Current Events; Click to Add Topic
KEYWORDS: AVIANFLU; H5N1; VIRUS; Click to Add Keyword



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Are Ducks Contributing to the Endemicity of Highly Pathogenic H5N1 Influenza Virus in Asia?
Wild waterfowl are the natural reservoir of all influenza A viruses, and these viruses are usually nonpathogenic in these birds. However, since late 2002, H5N1 outbreaks in Asia have resulted in mortality among waterfowl in recreational parks, domestic flocks, and wild migratory birds.

The evolutionary stasis between influenza virus and its natural host may have been disrupted, prompting us to ask whether waterfowl are resistant to H5N1 influenza virus disease and whether they can still act as a reservoir for these viruses.

To better understand the biology of H5N1 viruses in ducks and attempt to answer this question, we inoculated juvenile mallards with 23 different H5N1 influenza viruses isolated in Asia between 2003 and 2004. All virus isolates replicated efficiently in inoculated ducks, and 22 were transmitted to susceptible contacts.

Viruses replicated to higher levels in the trachea than in the cloaca of both inoculated and contact birds, suggesting that the digestive tract is not the main site of H5N1 influenza virus replication in ducks and that the fecal-oral route may no longer be the main transmission path.

The virus isolates' pathogenicities varied from completely nonpathogenic to highly lethal and were positively correlated with tracheal virus titers. Nevertheless, the eight virus isolates that were nonpathogenic in ducks replicated and transmitted efficiently to naïve contacts, suggesting that highly pathogenic H5N1 viruses causing minimal signs of disease in ducks can propagate silently and efficiently among domestic and wild ducks in Asia and that they represent a serious threat to human and veterinary public health.



175 posted on 09/13/2005 10:20:02 PM PDT by bitt ('But once the shooting starts, a plan is just a guess in a party dress.' Michael Yon)
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To: Judith Anne

Please add me to the list. Thanks so much for putting this together.


176 posted on 09/15/2005 3:55:10 PM PDT by Molly T.
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To: Judith Anne; 2ndreconmarine; Fitzcarraldo; Covenantor; rejoicing; Rushmore Rocks; ...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apscience_story.asp?category=1500&slug=Bird%20Flu

U.S. buys $100 million of bird flu vaccine

By LAURAN NEERGAARD
AP MEDICAL WRITER

WASHINGTON -- Mass production of a new vaccine that promises to protect against bird flu is poised to begin, as the government on Thursday agreed to stockpile $100 million worth of inoculations.

The new contract with French vaccine maker Sanofi-Pasteur marks a major scale-up in U.S. preparation for the possibility that the worrisome virus could spark an influenza pandemic.

While the vaccine is still experimental, preliminary results from the National Institutes of Health's first testing in people suggest the inoculations spur an immune response that would be strong enough to protect against known strains of the avian influenza, sparking the new investment.

But just how many doses the $100 million will buy isn't yet clear.

That's because there is contrasting research on just how much antigen much be in each dose to provide protection, explained Sanofi spokesman Len Lavenda. The range is huge - from 15 micrograms of antigen per dose to 90 - and the protective amount likely will wind up somewhere in between, he said.


Previously, the government has said it has stockpiled 2 million doses of bird flu vaccine.

Sanofi stored that vaccine in bulk, and the 2 million estimate assumed a single 15-microgram dose per person, Lavenda said. In contrast, the preliminary NIH research suggested it may take two 90-microgram shots to provide protection.

Simple math suggests that means the $100 million purchase could provide enough doses to protect anywhere from 1.7 million people - "we're quite sure it's going to be a lot more than that," Lavenda said - to a maximum of 20 million people.

A study now under way in France pairs the vaccine with an immune booster, called an adjuvant, that may help stretch doses. Sanofi expects results later in the year.

Regardless of the ultimate number, clearing the way for mass production now is a big step. Sanofi's factory in Swiftwater, Penn., can produce bird flu vaccine in September and October - months not occupied making vaccine for regular winter flu - and separate bulk lots into agreed-upon doses later.

The government's ultimate goal is to stockpile 20 million vaccine doses, a first wave of protection if the H5N1 bird flu strain eventually sparks a pandemic.

It's a quest gaining urgency. The virus has now killed or led to the slaughter of millions of birds, mostly in Asia but in parts of Europe, too. Although it has killed only about 60 people, mostly poultry workers, that's because so far it doesn't spread easily from person to person. If that changes - and flu viruses mutate regularly - it could trigger a deadly worldwide outbreak, because H5N1 is so different from the flu strains that circulate each winter that people have no residual immunity.

The nation also plans to stockpile 20 million doses of anti-flu medication, and the government announced Thursday it was purchasing enough of the drug Relenza, from maker GlaxoSmithKline, to treat 84,300 people.

Already in stock is enough of a competing drug, Tamiflu, to treat 4.3 million. Tamiflu is a pill, while Relenza must be inhaled, a drawback. The government still is planning additional Tamiflu purchases.

"These counter-measures provide us with tools that we have never had prior to previous influenza pandemics," said Health and Human Services Secretary Mike Leavitt.


http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1485526/posts

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apscience_story.asp?category=1500&slug=Indonesia%20Bird%20Flu

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

JAKARTA, Indonesia -- Indonesia on Friday confirmed its fourth human death from the bird flu virus, and warned that more cases in the sprawling country were inevitable.

Tests from a Hong Kong laboratory showed that a 37-year-old woman who died last week had contracted the H5N1 bird flu virus, said Nyoman Kandon, the health ministry's director general for illness control and environmental health.

He said Indonesia would continue to report cases because the virus was rife in poultry farms across the country. "It will be like in Vietnam and Thailand," he told The Associated Press.

The virus has swept through poultry populations in large swathes of Asia since 2003, resulting in the deaths of tens of millions of birds - and 63 people, most of them in Vietnam and Thailand.

Most of the human deaths have been linked to contact with sick birds. But the World Health Organization has warned that the virus could mutate into a form which is more easily transmitted from human to human, possibly triggering a pandemic that could kill millions worldwide.

Relenza (zanamivir)

FDA has approved Relenza (zanamivir), an anti-viral drug, for persons aged 7 years and older for the treatment of uncomplicated influenza virus. This product is approved to treat type A and B influenza, the two types most responsible for flu epidemics. Clinical studies showed that for the drug to be effective, patients needed to start treatment within two days of the onset of symptoms. The drug seemed to be less effective in patients whose symptoms weren't severe or didn't include a fever.

Relenza is a powder that is inhaled twice a day for five days from a breath-activated plastic device called a Diskhaler. Patients should get instruction from a health-care practitioner in the proper use of the Diskhaler, including a demonstration when possible. Relenza has not been shown to be effective, and may carry risk, in patients with severe asthma or a lung condition called chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Some patients with mild or moderate asthma experienced bronchospasm (marked by shortness of breath) after using Relenza.

Some patients have had bronchospasm (wheezing) or serious breathing problems when they used Relenza. Many but not all of these patients had previous asthma or chronic obstructive pulmonary disease. Relenza has not been shown to shorten the duration of influenza in people with these diseases. Because of the risk of side effects and because it has not been shown to help them, Relenza is not generally recommended for people with chronic respiratory disease. Anyone who develops bronchospasm worsening respiratory symptoms such as wheezing and shortness of breath should stop taking the drug and call their health-care provider. Patients with underlying respiratory disease should have a fast-acting inhaled bronchodilator available when taking Relenza.

Relenza is not approved for use in prevention of influenza (prophylaxis) and is not a substitute for influenza vaccine.


Transcript of the Antiviral Advisory Committee Date: 2/24/99; Topic: Relenza (zanamivir); NDA 21-036. Optional format: PDF. Also available: Minutes PDF.
Combined Memorandum. (Issued, 7/15/99, Posted, 8/27/99) This memo addresses several concerns raised by the Antiviral Drug Advisory Committee held on February 24, 1999.
Division Director Memorandum. (Issued, 7/26/99, Posted, 8/27/99) This memo states the Director's rationale for recommending approval of Relenza for treatment of uncomplicated influenza, plus comments on other noteworthy aspects of the application.
http://www.fda.gov/cder/news/relenza/default.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/Investigation/story?id=1130392&page=1

Sept. 15, 2005 — It could kill a billion people worldwide, make ghost towns out of parts of major cities, and there is not enough medicine to fight it. It is called the avian flu.

This week, at the United Nations Summit in New York, both the head of the U.N. World Health Organization and President Bush warned of the virus's deadly potential.

Avian Flu: Is the Government Ready for an Epidemic?
Volunteers Needed for 'Primetime' Test
"We must also remain on the offensive against new threats to public health, such as the Avian influenza," Bush said in his speech to world leaders. "If left unchallenged, the virus could become the first pandemic of the 21st century."

According to Dr. Irwin Redlener, director of the National Center for Disaster Preparedness at Columbia University's Mailman School of Public Health, Bush's call to remain on the offensive has come too late.

"If we had a significant worldwide epidemic of this particular avian flu, the H5N1 virus, and it hit the United States and the world, because it would be everywhere at once, I think we would see outcomes that would be virtually impossible to imagine," he warns.


Already, officials in London are quietly looking for extra morgue space to house the victims of the H5N1 virus, a never-before-seen strain of flu. Scientists say this virus could pose a far greater threat than smallpox, AIDS or anthrax.

"Right now in human beings, it kills 55 percent of the people it infects," says Laurie Garrett, a senior fellow on global health policy at the Council on Foreign Relations. "That makes it the most lethal flu we know of that has ever been on planet Earth affecting human beings."

No Natural Immunity
The Council on Foreign Relations devoted its most recent issue of the prestigious journal, Foreign Affairs, to what it called the coming global epidemic, a pandemic.


"Each year different flus come, but your immune system says, 'Ah, I've seen that guy before. No problem. Crank out some antibodies, and I might not feel great for a couple of days, but I'll recover,'" Garrett says. "Now what's scaring us is that this constellation of H number 5 and N number 1, to our knowledge, has never in history been in our species. So absolutely nobody watching this has any natural immunity to this form of flu."

Like most flu viruses, this form started in wild birds — such as geese, ducks and swans — in Asia.

"They die of a pneumonia, just like people," says William Karesh, the lead veterinarian for the Wildlife Conservation Society. "When you open them up, you do a post-mortem exam. Their lungs are just full of fluid and full of blood."

Karesh has been tracking this flu strain for the last several years as it has gained strength, spreading from wild birds to chickens to humans.

"We start at a market somewhere in Guangdong Province in China," explains Karesh. "And it's packed with cages, and you'll have chickens, and you'll have ducks. You might have some other animals — cats, dogs, turtles, snakes — and they're all stacked in cages, and they're all spreading their germs to each other."

In response, Asian governments have killed millions of chickens in futile attempts to stop the flu's spread to humans.

"The tipping point, the place where it becomes something of an immediate concern, is where that virus changes, we call it mutates, to something that is able to go from human to human," says Redlener, director of the National Center for Disaster Preparedness.....




177 posted on 09/16/2005 4:43:50 AM PDT by bitt ('But once the shooting starts, a plan is just a guess in a party dress.' Michael Yon)
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To: bitt

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N1538733.htm

Canada to host big October conference on avian flu
15 Sep 2005 20:20:39 GMT

Source: Reuters

OTTAWA, Sept 15 (Reuters) - Canada will host a major international conference on avian flu in October to discuss how ready the world is to combat a likely pandemic, Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh said on Thursday.

The head of the U.N. World Health Organization said on Thursday that avian flu will mutate and become transmissible by humans. The flu has already killed more than 60 people in Asia and spread to Russia and Europe.

"We believe that it is important for us across the world to prepare together and know about each other's plans with respect to a possible pandemic," Dosanjh told Reuters.

"For these kinds of issues one is never completely prepared ... we don't know when it (a pandemic) will occur, we all believe it will at some point (and) we need to make sure that we've done all we can to prepare for it."

He said the meeting -- which is most likely to be held in the Canadian capital Ottawa -- would group health ministers and senior officials from around 30 nations.

"We will of course be talking about accelerating global coordination efforts, rapid reaction plans and information sharing," Dosanjh said.

U.S. President George W. Bush on Wednesday unveiled a plan under which countries and international agencies would pool resources and expertise to fight bird flu.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/politics/12657120.htm
As New Orleans flooded, Chertoff discussed avian flu in Atlanta

BY SHANNON MCCAFFREY, ALISON YOUNG AND SETH BORENSTEIN

Knight Ridder Newspapers


WASHINGTON - (KRT) - Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, the U.S. official with the power to order a massive federal response to Hurricane Katrina, flew to Atlanta for a previously scheduled briefing on avian flu on the morning after the storm swept ashore.

Chertoff's decision to fly to Georgia for a business-as-usual briefing even as residents in New Orleans fought for their lives in rising floodwaters raises new questions about how much top officials knew about what was happening on the Gulf Coast and how focused they were on the unfolding tragedy.

In fact, Chertoff didn't know for sure that New Orleans' life-preserving levees had failed until a full day had passed.

Not until Chertoff was returning from Atlanta on Aug. 30 did he begin writing the memo that declared Katrina "an incident of national significance" and put the full force of the federal government behind the relief and rescue efforts.

Critics charge that the delay in making the designation until about 36 hours after the storm may have been one reason why federal help was slow in coming and why no one seemed to be in charge in the disaster zone.

In a first accounting of Chertoff's activities before and after the storm, Homeland Security spokesman Russ Knocke portrayed his boss as deeply involved yet not the man in charge.

As the severity of Katrina became apparent on Aug. 26, Knocke said, Chertoff huddled with his staff at Department of Homeland Security headquarters in Washington. Katrina, he said, was a major concern, but not the only thing preoccupying Homeland Security officials.

On Saturday, Aug. 27, Chertoff worked from home and on Sunday, Aug. 28 - with President Bush on vacation in Texas - he spent a long day in his office monitoring the storm's progress, Knocke said. On Monday, Aug. 29, as Katrina made landfall, Chertoff was hobbled by a lack of specific information from officials on the Gulf Coast, Knocke said.

Chertoff's team was unable to confirm until midday on Aug. 30 that the levees had breached even though the flooding was being widely reported on television beginning that morning and officials in Louisiana first reported those breaches in the early morning hours of Monday, Aug. 29.

The Homeland Security chief was "extraordinarily frustrated with some of the scattered information we were getting," Knocke said.

Stung by criticism, Chertoff's aides this week attempted to downplay his importance in managing the disaster relief, saying that former Federal Emergency Management Agency director Michael Brown was in charge. Brown resigned this week amid intense criticism about the sluggish and meager initial response to Katrina.

At the same time, Knocke said, Chertoff was deeply engaged in preparing for and responding to the powerful hurricane - ordering U.S. Customs helicopters to the Gulf Coast on Monday, Aug. 29, as the storm bore down and receiving a steady stream of updates from FEMA. Part of his time in Atlanta was spent at the FEMA operations center there receiving updates on the storm.

"There was a real sense of urgency," Knocke said.

Nonetheless, congressional critics and others are questioning how well Chertoff carried out his responsibilities under the National Response Plan - the blueprint for how the nation responds to disasters.

"There are a lot of questions that ultimately now put more light on the Secretary of Homeland Security," said Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., the ranking minority member on the House Homeland Security Committee.

Thompson said oversight hearings are needed to resolve them.

FEMA's Brown had arrived in Baton Rouge, La., on Sunday, Aug. 28. By Monday night, Aug. 29, he had called Chertoff and either White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card or his deputy Joe Hagin and said that things were spiraling "out of control," according to an interview Brown gave to The New York Times. Knocke said that Chertoff promised Brown "anything he needed."

Despite Brown's phone call, Chertoff went ahead the next day with his previously scheduled visit to the headquarters for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta with Health and Human Services Secretary Michael Leavitt for a briefing on avian flu. The disease has killed 57 people worldwide.

Afterward, Chertoff went to FEMA headquarters in Atlanta for an update and it appears that that's when he realized the magnitude of the crisis.

Still critics on Thursday questioned Chertoff's judgment in turning his attention elsewhere, even as the storm damage mounted.

"In the relative scheme of things it (avian flu) needed to be put on the back burner while New Orleans was going under water," said John Copenhaver, a southeastern regional FEMA director under the Clinton administration

Copenhaver found it incredible that Chertoff didn't know water was flooding into New Orleans until Tuesday, Aug. 30.

"He is the Cabinet official of the department that's supposed to know things like this," Copenhaver said.

With the spotlight now on Chertoff, officials at the Department of Homeland Security this week have begun issuing new versions of events surrounding his role in the botched federal response to Katrina.

What they are saying this week contradicts many of their previous statements and actions.

Knocke said Thursday that Chertoff's Aug. 30 memo, first obtained by Knight Ridder, created "an administrative paper trail" for an incident of national significance. He said that the department had been acting "under the auspices of an incident of national significance" since President Bush issued an emergency declaration on Aug. 27, the Saturday before the storm.

But the National Response Plan says that it's the Secretary of Homeland Security who designates an event an incident of national significance. When asked if Chertoff had made the designation earlier than Aug. 30, Knocke refused to answer the question directly.

After Chertoff made the designation in his Aug. 30 memo, federal troops began to file into New Orleans, bringing much-needed supplies to residents. But many people remained stranded on their rooftops seeking help from passing helicopters and boats.

Knocke acknowledged on Thursday that the National Response Plan - which was redrawn after the Sept. 11 attacks and became effective just this year - could be in line for an overhaul.

"We're also going to have to step back and take a look at the playbook," he said.



178 posted on 09/16/2005 4:46:18 AM PDT by bitt ('But once the shooting starts, a plan is just a guess in a party dress.' Michael Yon)
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To: bitt
I prefer the Remington 870 myself, but a Win. 2100 is a good shotgun.

The biggest thing is getting one you are comfortable with. If you have never shot one before, and are of a smaller frame, a 20 gauge would probably suit you better then a 12.
179 posted on 09/16/2005 5:14:22 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: little jeremiah; unseen; bitt; redgolum; Judith Anne

For thoughtful and practical by those that experienced Katrina in the NOLA area read the after action stickies at The High Road.org.

They deal with all aspects of conditions actually experienced and explore the ways in which to improve one's preparedness. Those on the bang list are familiar with the High Road.
http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=5

Various lists include food items, clothing, vehicle, and defense preparations a. Well worth the read and pondering over given one own circumstances.

Other thread categories include weapons.


180 posted on 09/16/2005 6:09:08 AM PDT by Covenantor
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