Posted on 07/25/2005 5:07:52 AM PDT by MadIvan
The Brazilian man shot dead by police in south London, who mistook him for a suicide bomber, had been in Britain on an out-of-date visa, officials say.
Jean Charles de Menezes, 27, may have run from police because of his visa situation, BBC correspondents say.
The electrician had come to the UK on a student visa, which allows people to work for a small number of hours.
Relatives of Mr Menezes are considering suing over the Stockwell Tube shooting, saying police will have "to pay".
Meanwhile, detectives are still hunting for the men who attempted to blow up three London Tube trains and a bus last Thursday.
Three men have been arrested so far, but it is thought the four would-be bombers are still free and may have access to explosives.
Meanwhile, Chris Fox, president of the Association of Chief Police Officers, gave his support to the Metropolitan Police's "shoot-to-kill" policy with potential suicide bombers, in the wake of Friday's shooting of Mr Menezes.
"Shoot-to-kill is very good headline but, in fact, what we have to do is have a series of tactics which range from disruption to the very, very final moment when you have to shoot and the aim is to prevent the criminal or suspect causing harm to other people," he said.
Under surveillance
However, the victim's cousin, Alex Pereira, who is based in London, said: "[The police] have to pay for [Friday's killing] in many ways, because if they do not, they are going to kill many people, they are going to kill thousands of people.
"They just kill the first person they see, that's what they did.
"They killed my cousin, they could kill anyone."
Mr Menezes was killed after fleeing armed police as he travelled to work.
He had been followed by police from his block of flats in Tulse Hill, which was under surveillance in the hunt for the group behind Thursday's attempted bombings.
Mr Menezes had boarded the number 2 bus to Stockwell.
Police said his padded jacket had heightened suspicions about his journey. He was shot as he ran on to a train.
Heavy coats or clothing are often worn by suicide bombers in other parts of the world to help them disguise their bombs.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission has opened an investigation into the circumstances surrounding the death.
In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police.
Cousin Maria do Socorro, speaking before details about the visa emerged, told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "I think they acted incompetently, like amateurs.
"You would think the British police would be prepared, but they are panicking and seeing everyone as a suspect.
"If you are going to have a war on terror, you have got to use brains to fight it not just brute force."
Friends of Mr Menezes in London said he had recently returned to Brazil for eight months to be with his father, who was being treated for cancer.
'Highly trained'
Fausto Soares, 26, said Mr Menezes had been sending money to pay for the treatment and was concerned how the family would now cope financially.
Former Prime Minister Sir John Major has defended the police's actions.
Speaking on the Today programme, Sir John said: "These officers are very highly trained. Very few of them are permitted to carry arms, but in that second they had no-one to help them, no-one to turn to.
"They had to make a decision. Do we take this dreadful decision to shoot, or do we face the risk that conceivably, if our worst fears are right, a bomb could be detonated that could kill people, including them, in the next second or so?"
An expired Visa -- must be running from creditors and credit card company...
I get your point, about right to bear arms, but rules of engagement no longer apply when "suicide" bomber scenario exists. The fleeing suspect could have been a weapon getting ready to be discharged. Shoot to kill, shoot at the head, ask questions later.
Very true that the rules of engagement don't prevent this in the US if you believe that the suspect has a bomb and is going to blow up innocent people.
But the question is whether the fact that the suspect emerged from a building they were watching wearing a heavy coat and ran to the subway ought to make you think he was a suicide bomber.
I would think that before you fill the guy's head with five bullets, you'd have more to go on than that.
Of course, I am not suggesting that they should have done nothing. They should have chased him, which is what they would have had to do if they did not have guns.
The bottom line is that these guys were not used to making these decisions, and this is the result.
Can someone please explain (or point me to an article) that conveys/reports that he had something in his hands while he was being subdued (and later shot at)?
I can understand wanting to shoot to stop him if he was running on to a train, but shooting someone you already have restrained seems like a bit much to me. If he had something in his hand (like a detonator) while they were holding him down, it would all make sense. But the details don't seem to add up (at least for me)
MJ
I still think there will be some, maybe minor connection to the bombers despite the police denials. They weren't watching him for no reason.
OK ten bucks oughta cover it.
"In Brazil, relatives are demanding answers to why Mr Menezes ran and why he was shot by police."
I can explain why he was shot... It's pretty simple.
I feel bad for them, but marginally less bad seeing as how they are idiots.
"He was wearing a heavy padded overcoat in the middle of summer on a day when the temperatures were in the mid to upper 70's. And, when told to halt, he fled and jumped the turnstile."
Not only that, he jumped the turnstile and headed towards THE TRAIN!
But if this is tape from the incident where the man was killed, this guy was out of his freaking mind to make them give chase like that. NOT just in the train station, but through city blocks, with police and dogs giving chase and then he enters the train station. The police had every reason to suspect the worse.
He was wearing a belt or pack around his waist that was full of electrical parts and wires (which some of the passengers saw) when the police wrestled him down. He was in the habit of carrying his electrician's equipment this way.
You have to admit that at a moment like that, it would be very easy to think that a belt with wires sticking out was a bomb.
They need those "safer bullets" Jocelyn Elders was talking about. /sarcasm
OK, student visa, could work small number of hours. So he could afford to send money for cancer treatments (doesn't mean it was a lot, granted, a righteous cause). Who knows maybe before or when it expired he went for full hours and overtime. Can afford to leave for eight months, then come back? He must have been making a lot of moola schmoola in Brazil also...yet came back, not with an expired visa (hopefully),...into London. I wonder when the visa expired and are they actually required to go to school since it is a school visa? (would think). If so, where did he go and what did he take? Why couldn't he have applied for a work visa after?
Was it the middle of the day or the morning when he went to work? The morning time around 6 a.m. is when temps are usually at their lowest. I looked up the forecast for London today and the low is 55 degrees Fahrenheit with high only 66. They may have exaggerated how heavy his coat is - it might have been a lighter type jacket than they are implying.
This is the forecast for this week. The temps look more like spring than summer:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/weather/5day_f.shtml?world=0008
Monday (July 25): 59 – 66 degrees Fahrenheit
Tuesday: 55 – 68
Wednesday: 59 – 70
Thursday: 64 – 79
Friday: 60 – 69
"I heard that on the news, too. Five cops tackled him, had him on the ground, and then they blow his head off. Admittedly we don't have all the facts, but that seems to be the most disturbing part in all this."
They wanted to make sure he couldn't detonate the bomb he looked to be carrying.
It was hotter last week.
Those facts and the fact that he did not respond to direct police orders make it necessary to assume that he is a suicide bomber and to terminate him with extreme prejudice.
There simply is no margin for the benefit of the doubt in such circumstances.
These cops did precisely what they should have done and I would hope US policemen would have the sense to react exactly as their US counterparts did.
THE FACT REMAINS THAT IF THIS IDIOT HAD STOPPED AND OBEYED A DIRECT POLICE ORDER HE WOULD BE ALIVE.
There is no right to run from the police.
That's why they piled on him and went for the head shots so he wouldn't even get twitch time in. To smother the possible explosion from those around and disable him (they thought), from detonating.
When I first heard the reports, I thought something was funny because there were a lot of versions. Rule of warfare, ignore the first three reports.
I heard wires were hanging out (thought Walkman, but they should know the difference), coat (anemic, heroin addict?), padded coat (uh-oh), running (here in NY, you don't want to do that...trust me, some have...not here to talk about it), train station (nope, smells like suicide),
surveillance of buildings (ok, it could have been someone else), expired visa (no good, not at all) and the family, they way they came out at the beginning was strange...grieving of course, angry but the choice of words messed me up somehow, for an illegal and that close to the death the statements rubbed me wrong.
He denied speculation that Mr Menezes had fled from police because his visa had expired."He showed me about three months ago the visa and the Home Office letter. He had a five year visa. I think he still had five years more to go.
"Why would they think he ran because of that if he had five years on his visa."
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.