Natalee Holloway - Case Discussion Extended Thread 7

I did it just for you guys. :)

Now I have heart palpitations.

I feel as if I am an outsider here since I am a sometime poster, but here goes. Joran and Natalee were dropped off. He was the cause of Natalee's death. Hides her body in the sand. Calls Daddy instead of Deepak. Daddy goes to get her. Takes Natalee and JVDS back to his place. JVDS calls Deepak to tell him that he is walking home. However, he was in Daddy's vehicle all the while. They got together to come up with all those lies. But, WERE THEY SURPRISED when they learned that Natalee's Mom was on her way! What to do? Most of it transpired while PVDS was running the Twitty's all over the island. Remember when they returned to the home of PVDS? There was Joran and Deepak leaning against the car. What had they done in this period of time? PVDS knows! Lock him up.

Where are they getting that information?

Like most info.....it gets leaked from within the prosecuter's/LE(?) office? That's my guess.

Ellis & that Trappenberg guy. sheesh,
a few times, I thought he was gritting
his teeth to keep from
cussing out our MSN anchors.

What I've learned about 17 yr. old joran.....he's lived the life of a 40 yr. old.

Wait...I'm living the life of a 40-year-old. It involves commuting, working, changing diapers, reading stories, cutting lawns, etc. Let me know when all this rampant drinking and sex is supposed to kick in.

You think Natalee was at the VDS house dead when Beth first got there?

Every time I see this poor girl's face on T.V., every time I see the smug countenances of the three fiends who alone know her fate, everytime I watch the fear and grief of her suffering mother, my fury rises and knows no bounds.

Perhaps the Aruban authorities know what they are doing. Perhaps the Dutch legal system is less tied up in gameboard juridical regulations than the U.S. courts. Perhaps in the long run justice will prevail in Aruba and the miscreants involved will be adequately punished and Natalee or her body - preferably the former - located.

Only time will tell.

But if such is not the case, Aruba and the Aruban authorities should be held to account and so should the three miscreants and the father of the individual who is apparently the chief culprit - one way or the other.

At times, gunboat diplomacy has its uses.

There are probably people who think the parents are getting screwed and leak for that reason. Sympathy.

"But the dutch system is very good. For us, it is very fair. We like it very much. We are not cowboys like you Americans. We are much more deliberate in the way we approach an investigation under Aruban law. You Americans do not understand that For Us, the Dutch law is the way. It is very good, very fair. We are permitted to tell you nothing. That is the way of Dutch law. For us..."

It is very good, very fair. We are permitted to tell you nothing. That is the way of Dutch law.

When the father of one of the suspects is plugged into the Dutch (Aruban) legal community, the skepticism of a "tell you nothing" system is well warranted.

My daughter and I want to know where she got that fabulous necklace she had on the other day, we want one. Anyone sell necklaces like it PM me ;)

You know I really would like to see the silhouette of USS John C. Stennis(Johnny Reb) sitting about five miles off the coast of Palm Beach, Aruba conducting launch and recovery operations. Wouldn't that be cool?
Hell, I'd even be happy of one of our Arleigh Burke's made a liberty call.
TAW

of = if

'Scarborough Country' for July 14

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST: A developing story out of Aruba tonight. Top suspect Joran Van Der Sloot remains jailed behind bars. Now Aruban authorities have to make their case.

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY. No passport required, and only common sense allowed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH (voice-over): Decision day in Aruba. The prime suspect stays behind bars. We're live with reaction from Natalee's family and what it means in the search for the truth.

Plus, Senator Richard Shelby from Natalee's home state of Alabama comes to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to talk about his efforts to bring her home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH: Hey, welcome to the show.

A court has ruled today that Joran Van Der Sloot, the key suspect in Natalee Holloway's disappearance, will stay behind bars for at least 49 more days. Now, that part of the ruling today certainly considered a victory for Natalee's family, in their tireless fight for justice.

But the other side of it, of course, the Kalpoe brothers. Allowed to walk free.

But we're going to be covering all the angles tonight with the people closest to this story. We're going to have NBC's Michelle Kosinski;

Natalee's step-dad, Jug Twitty; sex crimes prosecutor Stacey Honowitz; and United States Senator Richard Shelby from Natalee's home state of Alabama.

But first, let's go down to Aruba, where NBC's Michelle Kosinski has the very latest. Michelle, talk about today's rulings.

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the appeals court shot down every single appeal that came before it. And when you look at the outcomes, four out of five of them do not benefit the prosecution, except for one, and that is a big one in their favor, the decision to keep Joran Van Der Sloot, the No. 1 suspect in this case at this point, behind bars.

That made the family very happy, but they and prosecutors would have liked to have seen the Kalpoe brothers put back in jail. These are the two boys who told investigators that they dropped off Natalee and Joran on a beach early in the morning when Natalee disappeared. The court said there just wasn't enough suspicion to keep them in custody.

Not so for Joran, however. The court very explicitly stated that there is some serious suspicion against him, and that's really what sets him apart from the Kalpoes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ISELLA WERNET, COURT CLERK: The serious objections against the suspect consists of the fact that, until briefly, before the disappearance of Natalee Holloway, he was in her company and gave varying statements about what happened then and afterwards.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOSINSKI: Interestingly, the court of appeals kind of put all three of these suspects in the same boat, in a sense. They said all three of these young men were with Natalee Holloway shortly before she disappeared, and all three of them gave statements that seemed to change over time.

The difference, though, is they explicitly stated, as we said, in writing, that this serious suspicion against Joran justifies keeping him in jail, and they said they want to keep him there to continue their investigation. They want to sort out all of his statements and get to the bottom of his story.

Of course, they have 116 days from the time of his arrest to keep him there, charge him with a crime, or release him. And as we see it, that date will come in early October for him.

SCARBOROUGH: Michelle, obviously in the United States you have one appeal after another. You can start at the state court, keep going up all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. What about in Aruba? Is this Joran's one and only bite at the apple, or does he have an additional appeal coming up?

KOSINSKI: No more appeals at this stage. At this point, it ends here. Doesn't go to a higher court. The appeals court was ruling on what the lower court judge said, so they upheld that. It stops here for now.

Now, once Joran's 60 days are over, there's going to be another hearing where prosecutors can push to have him detained another 30 days. At that point, another appeals process could start. So it remains to be seen, if the same sorts of things keep going on or, of course, there is more evidence presented, things could really start changing in a big way.

SCARBOROUGH: You know, Michelle, last night we were talking about new evidence that had come out, lawyers had been talking about it over the past few days. Did you get any indication what that evidence was? Obviously, now is the time the prosecution has to get their case together or else Joran walks. Any word, though, on this new evidence?

KOSINSKI: Well, there's plenty of rumors of evidence on this island right now, but those tend to be focused on evidence that's already in the file, that's already there, just stuff that we don't know about.

As for the new evidence that was presented in court on Tuesday by prosecutors, again, we know that these are witness statements in the form of affidavits, but the attorneys are telling us it doesn't pertain to their client, it doesn't affect my client, it's nothing that we haven't heard before.

And we just don't know how true that is. I mean, that could be true in a sense for their client, but obviously, when there is new evidence presented, it has to pertain to the case in some way, and that way is what we don't know.

I mean, does it benefit the prosecution? Possibly, but prosecutors had to present all the evidence they had, even if it was something that was not going to be earth shattering for them, so we just don't know what that evidence is. But it is comforting in a sense to the family that there is something new, at least, that's being gathered that could be presented.

SCARBOROUGH: All right. Thanks so much, Michelle Kosinski, as always. We appreciate you being with us.

Now, let's move on and talk to Jug Twitty, Natalee's stepdad. Jug, thanks for being with us tonight. Great talking to you again. What was the family's reaction to the court decision today?

JUG TWITTY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY'S STEPFATHER: Well, we were happy that they retained Joran, of course. I mean, we would like to have seen Deepak, at least, retained, too, because he still has some—some answers to questions that we have. But we were certainly relieved they kept Joran in there.

And I'd also like to say that I really appreciate—I understand that Senator Shelby is with us here tonight, and that's what the United States is all about. Senator Shelby has helped us tremendously, and I applaud him for stepping up to the plate and helping my family.

SCARBOROUGH: Now, you've left Aruba. How is Beth holding up right now with the hearing? Obviously, she's very disappointed, as were you, when the Kalpoe brothers walked originally.

I mean, after all, these were guys that, again, seen with Natalee, change their story time and time again. Part of the cover-up. Got advice from Joran's father, no body, no crime, and yet they walk. Is she doing OK tonight?

TWITTY: She is, Joe. Thank you very much. She's—she's a strong woman, as everybody in the world knows. She's determined. We all know that—that Joran has answers that we need—you know, we need answered.

And, you know, one thing about him staying in there, I believe that he's going to be in there for 60 days, or 48 more days. And if it was my son, if George was in this situation, I know that I would be telling George, “Let's get to the truth. I don't want you in there another 48 days. You tell the truth. And call us. You tell the truth, and let's get an answer to this. Let's bring closure to it.”

If they're innocent, come forward, and I wouldn't want my son in there for another 48 days.

SCARBOROUGH: You talked—you talked about, obviously, the key suspect and his father. Talk about that night, one of the first nights right after the disappearance. You go to the island. You go to meet these people to talk to them to try to figure out what happened to Natalee, and obviously, you all exchanged words.

What did you see that night? What did you all say to each other? How did your wife know that something was wrong?

TWITTY: Well, you know, immediately when we got to the house, you could tell there was a defense. Already they were trying to come up with some kind of story, so to speak.

And then, of course, we went through the Holiday Inn scene, and Joran immediately tried to say—first he looks at Natalee's picture like he didn't know her. And then, you know, I faced him and I said, “Don't act like you don't know her, because I have—I have witnesses that stood there and saw her get in the car with you.”

And then, “Yes, I know her.” And then we went through that for awhile, and you know, you just had the feeling right there that something - · something wasn't right.

SCARBOROUGH: So he's lying from the very beginning, acting like he didn't even know Natalee. Are you convinced tonight, is Beth convinced that these three young men all committed some crime against Natalee?

TWITTY: No, I'm not convinced that they all committed a crime. I'm convinced that they were the last ones—that definitely Joran was the last one to be with Natalee, and he knows the answer.

And as I've said before, numerous times, if it were my son in the same situation, I would have come back the next morning and said, “Look, I've talked to Joran after we spoke last night,” or “I talked to George after we spoke last night, and he really didn't take her to the Holiday Inn. He took her to the Marriott Beach. They dropped him off. She passed out. He may have panicked, or whatever, and—but, you know, we're back this morning, Jug, and Beth, and, Joran did nothing bad. We want to help you find Natalee.”

And why they didn't come back the next morning and try to do that, I don't know. Instead, they go and hire an attorney. So I mean, everybody in the world knows that. So everybody knows that story (ph)...

SCARBOROUGH: Well, Jug, not only do they hire an attorney. They also · I mean, Paulus goes to the boys and says, “Hey, if there's not a body, there's not a crime.” So obviously—I mean, they are acting in bad faith. They've been acting in bad faith from the first night that you arrived on the island, and they continue to act in bad faith.

You know, we've been hearing the past couple of days about a possible confession, that the FBI talked to the family and said—may have told you all that Joran had made a confession early on in his incarceration. Any truth to that story?

TWITTY: I can't say for sure that that's the truth, but I tell you, Joe, I would—I would believe that that could have happened. I mean, I was told by the FBI they almost broke the first night or two, and that something happened in there. And all of a sudden, somebody got to him, and he decided not to say anything else.

But, you know, now—now we're into the 60-day thing, so if I were his father, Paulus, and I'll make a plea to Paulus, you need to talk to your son, and you need to come and you need to face us and tell us the truth.

Let's bring this to closure. You know the answers. Your son knows the answers. So all we're asking for is, you know, whatever happened, we've been through the we've found her alive, she's been dead. Beth and I have been through this emotional roller coaster. And all we want is Natalee, whether she's alive or dead. We want to bring her back to the United States, and we'll leave and they can do whatever they want to do.

imho again, there is more to this than just Joran.

SCARBOROUGH: All right, Jug Twitty, thank you again for being with us. We really appreciate it. Unfortunately, I don't think we're dealing, again, with people who are acting in good faith. They haven't from the beginning.

But certainly our thoughts and prayers are with you. And we hope that something turns up, something happens soon, to finally bring closure to this case.

TWITTY: Thank you.

SCARBOROUGH: All right. Straight ahead, more to come on our Aruba coverage. Next, we are going to be talking to the United States senator who is desperately trying to get answers out of Aruba, out of the Dutch, and out of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

SCARBOROUGH: You're looking at the Wall of Hope in Birmingham, Alabama. People in Natalee's hometown continue to add to it every day, continuing to keep hope alive.

Now, we all know Joran Van Der Sloot is going to spend at least another several weeks in jail, so the question is, will prosecutors be able to build a case against him in that time to convict him?

Let's turn to Florida sex crimes prosecutor Stacey Honowitz. You know, Stacey, we keep talking about that quote, that chilling quote by the father, “No body, no crime.” In the end, that's pretty god legal advice, isn't it?

STACEY HONOWITZ, SEX CRIMES PROSECUTOR: Absolutely. I mean, Joe, this is a very difficult case. If this kid doesn't break or crack somehow within the next 60 days, prosecutors have a major problem.

Now, as Michelle said at the top of the segment, she talked about additional evidence. We know that they are waiting for evidence of e-mails or computer chat rooms, so we still don't know what's hanging out there. Hopefully, prosecutors will have something else to tie him in. But for now...

SCARBOROUGH: But, Stacey, of everything you know.

HONOWITZ: ... he says it's nothing. He's not going to break.

SCARBOROUGH: Of everything you know of tonight, what you're telling us is, if the police officers aren't able to break this guy down, he 's going to walk out of jail free 49 days from now?

HONOWITZ: Yes, I mean, you really, unfortunately, have nothing in this case at this point. That's what we're dealing with. The guy that's in custody that gives inconsistent statements, you can't prosecute just based on a lie. You can hold him, but you can't prosecute him for murder based on inconsistent statements without any kind of forensic evidence. That's what we're hoping is going to come about.

SCARBOROUGH: So what happens? I mean, Stacey, we obviously, in the United States, we—we hear of murders that are—that are committed. We never find a body, and yet somebody is convicted.

Later on, the segment we're going to be talking about a possible murder in the Mediterranean, where a lot of evidence may point to a wife.

You can convict people without actually having the body, can't you?

HONOWITZ: Oh, absolutely. I'm not saying that the body is the key in this case. Certainly having the body, if, of course, she has been murdered, would help with forensic evidence and things like that.

But in any kind of murder case, even though you don't have the physical body, you still have the corpus delecti, the body of the crime, which means that a mere confession would not be enough. You really need some type of forensic or evidence to prove that there was violence, something was committed.

So while you're right about there doesn't have to be a physical body, there still has to be a corpus to the crime. Murders take place. People are prosecuted, but right now as we sit here and we wait, right now we don't have anything. So we're going to have to see what comes through the next 60 days.

SCARBOROUGH: All right. Of course, what's so difficult about that is we've got to sit and wait in the dark, because obviously, it's a judicial system in Aruba that is not transparent, to say the least.

Stacey, thanks a lot.

HONOWITZ: They don't want the public to know anything. Thanks, Joe.

SCARBOROUGH: No, they really don't. Thank, as always, Stacey. We really appreciate you being with us.

Now earlier tonight, I talked to U.S. Senator Richard Shelby, and I asked the Alabama senator about the ongoing investigation to find Natalee and also asked him if the Aruban government is shutting out the FBI.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. RICHARD SHELBY ®, ALABAMA: The FBI has to be asked to come in there. You know, this is an extraterritorial area. There's sovereignty there. We've had people down there, but you know, they're not conducting the investigation, because they don't have the jurisdiction to do it. But they have tried to aid the Aruban investigators everywhere they could.

They've reached out. They've reached out to me. But where we go from here, I don't know. I think every day works against us.

SCARBOROUGH: You've written some letters to the Aruban prime minister, to Condoleezza Rice, also.

SHELBY: Absolutely.

SCARBOROUGH: Tell me the response to those letters. And there's some tough talk in there, where you did accuse them of running an ineffective investigation. What was the response from Aruba, from the Dutch, and also from Condi Rice?

SHELBY: Well, first of all, the Aruban prime minister called me. The Dutch ambassador has been in touch. Secretary Rice's office has been in touch, and of course, but nothing is really coming together yet.

You know, generally we want results. We haven't gotten them yet. The family needs results. There's just, as I said earlier, just too many unanswered questions. A lot of—a lot of mystery, a lot of stuff that shouldn't have gone on. Forty-something days, nearly going on 50 days, and no answers. Something is wrong.

SCARBOROUGH: When you talk to the family, the Holloway family, what do you say to them? What can you say to them to try to bring them comfort or understanding?

SHELBY: Well, I don't know, except to say this. I think the family, Ms. Twitty, Natalee Holloway's mother, her father, her stepfather, her stepmother, her aunts and others, they have driven this issue. They care about this. This is a very important member of their family.

And I believe if they hadn't pushed it like they had, nothing—it would have been on the back pages if it would have been anywhere. But I hope they will continue. I want to reach out as one of the U.S. senators, and senator from their home state of Alabama to try to help them find some answers.

SCARBOROUGH: All right, Senator Richard Shelby, thank you so much for being with us.

SHELBY: Thank you, Joe.

SCARBOROUGH: And roll Tide.

SHELBY: Roll Tide.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH: I'll tell you what—I'll tell you, everybody in Alabama greatly appreciative of what the senator is doing, certainly the family, as you heard earlier tonight, very appreciative. This senator continues to fight for the truth. And since the Aruban officials don't seem to be as concerned, that's certainly a good thing.

Yes johnb838, I surely do .

It truly was a tragic story . Steven had a tv movie made about his life. After he came 'home', his brother was jealous of all the attention he got.
Steven was showing signs of feeling alienated within his family, school, (others knew his story) and he had trouble. He drank beer or whatever to help him ease his unsettled feelings.

Now I am uncertain whether he was killed in a car wreck or if he committed suicide. It might be because he did give evidence of wanting to commit suicide for awhile before he actually died. He died real young. His brother probably felt anger all the years Steven was gone, due to how much time and attention his parents spent searching and grieving over Stevens disappearance. Truly sad. The parents lost both their boys in extremely painful circumstances.

I agree with you, CG. I seldom watch TV but since my internet cable is cut :-( I watched H&C last night. Sean's main thrust seemed to be to get Jug Twitty to admit that Natalee had sex in the car. It was a line that was uncalled for and confirmed that it's all for the ratings...

Having studied Natalee's reputation from those who know her, I want to say it upsets me that many attack or speculate she was a slut or worse while never mentioning Joran. His character and reputation were all too obvious if you got a chance to look at his websites, blogs and pictures prior to his removing them. That said, Sean Hannity was asking Jug what he thought about claims Joran had sex with Natalee. I did not see it as an attack against her, but rather as wanting Jug to say they are dead wrong.

My unsolicited two cents worth:

Joran is going to walk.

No one is going to prison.

The prosecuter is prosecuting the wrong crime. I do not believe Joran murdered her.

Natalee may even still be alive, but not anywhere near Aruba.

My theory is; Joran tricked her into going for a walk on the beach, where he "sold" her to a slaver. The reason he is not talking is because he knows if he does,that would be his death sentence.

As long as Joran keeps his mouth shut about the "trader", he will not be convicted. Remember: "No body, no conviction."

I believe this theory is the only one that fits the facts as we know them. Put on your thinking caps, and start putting it all together. The time line, the Kalpoe's story, even Paulus van der Sloot's story and time line. All fits.

Blast away.

LOL!

Welllll.....I got 22 yrs on you!

Unfortunately, that is a very real scenario - Joran lured Natalee to a beach where she was kidnapped and taken to Venezuela and maybe the Middle East.

What this reflects terribly on is the Dutch legal system. They are so afraid of trampling on Joran's civil rights that they forget about whatever rights Natalee had.

Yes, for the few liberals here, we have no evidence that Joran did anything. But everyone admits that he knows what happened (given the number of times he and the Alpo brothers have changed their stories).

So, anyone who screams about how superior Europe is in terms of their legal system, think of a system where a judge trainee gets his son off from murder or a sale into white slavery. In the US, this would not happen (except in the movies).

No flames. Some of us still feel that theory has some merit.